Today's Articles

• NZ study on murder rates

  Question:

  - Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I hate the term "mentally ill" when it’s misused, as it often is, to mean people like us – people with a psychiatric diagnosis.  In this report, it’s used quite precisely to refer to people who are not sane when they commit murder – according to the judgment of the police investigating the case. The main finding of the report is that the rate of murders by people who are mad has not increased in 30 years, whereas the murder rate over-all has tripled – in other words, murders by normies have gone through the roof. (Up to the level in the UK, by the way, but still well below the US rate).    in the many times i been in a facility,some of my family would get nervous about bringing cigarettes or something.they didn’t know that the unit was one of the safest places they could be.patients overmedicated,physically fit young men on guard.whereever you go,there you are.(who said that?)Richard

     anyway,i asked often (like Olivier in "Marathon Man"),"is it safe?"R

  Response:

  I’ve never felt unsafe in a psych ward.  Finding a decent shrink was nigh on impossible though! Maybe I was just too f’d up to know danger when I saw it. — c website  http://www.plazaearth.com/philo

  – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I hate the term "mentally ill" when it’s misused, as it often is, to mean people like us – people with a psychiatric diagnosis.  In this report, it’s used quite precisely to refer to people who are not sane when they commit murder – according to the judgment of the police investigating the case. The main finding of the report is that the rate of murders by people who are mad has not increased in 30 years, whereas the murder rate over-all has tripled – in other words, murders by normies have gone through the roof. (Up to the level in the UK, by the way, but still well below the US rate).    in the many times i been in a facility,some of my family would get nervous about bringing cigarettes or something.they didn’t know that the unit was one of the safest places they could be.patients overmedicated,physically fit young men on guard.whereever you go,there you are.(who said that?)Richard The 2 times I was in Carrington in Auckland, I didn’t feel that safe.  The staff spent most of their time in the staff room, and there were lots of tough-looking male patients around.  I was worried about getting raped or beaten up, but on the other hand I was also worried that Ronald Reagan was trying to find me to drop an H-bomb on me. Maybe Carrington was a bit of a snake-pit compared to the places you describe.

  Response:

  I hate the term "mentally ill" when it’s misused, as it often is, to mean people like us – people with a psychiatric diagnosis.  In this report, it’s used quite precisely to refer to people who are not sane when they commit murder – according to the judgment of the police investigating the case. The main finding of the report is that the rate of murders by people who are mad has not increased in 30 years, whereas the murder rate over-all has tripled – in other words, murders by normies have gone through the roof. (Up to the level in the UK, by the way, but still well below the US rate).

     in the many times i been in a facility,some of my family would get nervous about bringing cigarettes or something.they didn’t know that the unit was one of the safest places they could be.patients overmedicated,physically fit young men on guard.whereever you go,there you are.(who said that?)Richard

  Response:

  – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I hate the term "mentally ill" when it’s misused, as it often is, to mean people like us – people with a psychiatric diagnosis.  In this report, it’s used quite precisely to refer to people who are not sane when they commit murder – according to the judgment of the police investigating the case. The main finding of the report is that the rate of murders by people who are mad has not increased in 30 years, whereas the murder rate over-all has tripled – in other words, murders by normies have gone through the roof. (Up to the level in the UK, by the way, but still well below the US rate).    in the many times i been in a facility,some of my family would get nervous about bringing cigarettes or something.they didn’t know that the unit was one of the safest places they could be.patients overmedicated,physically fit young men on guard.whereever you go,there you are.(who said that?)Richard

  The 2 times I was in Carrington in Auckland, I didn’t feel that safe.  The staff spent most of their time in the staff room, and there were lots of tough-looking male patients around.  I was worried about getting raped or beaten up, but on the other hand I was also worried that Ronald Reagan was trying to find me to drop an H-bomb on me. Maybe Carrington was a bit of a snake-pit compared to the places you describe.

  Response:

  Never been to New Zealand.The mentally ill have a history of committing fewer crimes than the normals.don’t they?Anyway,is a person "mentally ill" if they have been treated,but not mentally ill otherwise?I got nothin’ against New Zealanders,but the general population sounds a bit in need of treatment.Might lower the crime rate.R

  Response:

  Never been to New Zealand.The mentally ill have a history of committing fewer crimes than the normals.don’t they?Anyway,is a person "mentally ill" if they have been treated,but not mentally ill otherwise?I got nothin’ against New Zealanders,but the general population sounds a bit in need of treatment.Might lower the crime rate.R

  I hate the term "mentally ill" when it’s misused, as it often is, to mean people like us – people with a psychiatric diagnosis.  In this report, it’s used quite precisely to refer to people who are not sane when they commit murder – according to the judgment of the police investigating the case. The main finding of the report is that the rate of murders by people who are mad has not increased in 30 years, whereas the murder rate over-all has tripled – in other words, murders by normies have gone through the roof. (Up to the level in the UK, by the way, but still well below the US rate).

  Response:

  While murder rates in NZ have tripled since 1970, the number of murders by the mentally ill has stayed constant.  So the percentage of murders by mentally ill has fallen from c. 20% in 1970 to c. 6% now. The article then puzzles over whether this represents a success for de-institutionalisation.  IMHO it seems more likely that social factors since 1970 have caused more normies to kill – drugs, unemployment, the brainwashing effect of violent entertainments, the usual suspects.  But that the factors leading to killings by mentally ill people are related to brain chemistry and genetics, which have not changed over this period. NB the article is clear, honest, non-alarmist & full of data.  For example, of the murders by mentally ill people, about half were committed by people in psychosis – this equates to 2 or 3 people per year.  They make the point that at any given time about 12,000 people in NZ are psychotic (about a third of one percent of the 4 million population). <http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydisplay.cfm?storyID=3518357&thesection… thesubsection=general I’ll quote it here at some length, since the Herald doesn’t keep stories online for long. Murder and the mentally ill 17.08.2003 By GEOFF CUMMING Everyone knows society is more dangerous these days: there’s violence on the streets and it’s beamed into our living rooms. And it’s no coincidence that the closure of Carrington, Tokanui, Lake Alice and other mental institutions led to this surge in murders, right? Psychiatrist Sandy Simpson tests the theory on his masters students and the community groups he addresses: do they think the proportion of murders committed by the mentally ill has risen or fallen in the past 30 years? "They all think it’s getting worse." But a study released today quashes myths about the risk posed by the mentally ill. It finds no basis to claims that care of psychiatric patients in the community has contributed to the increase in murders. It even suggests that the likelihood of violence by people with mental illnesses has fallen since "deinstitutionalisation". "Community care hasn’t failed," says Jim Burdett, who represents people in contact with mental health services. "People aren’t being killed by lunatics in huge numbers." The study, Myth and reality: the relationship between mental illness and homicide in New Zealand, examined the files of 1501 murderers between 1970 and 2000. It found 133, or 8.9 per cent, were judged not fit to stand trial or not guilty by reason of insanity, in line with rates for low homicide countries internationally. But an interesting trend emerged. Although the number of murders has tripled, from fewer than 20 a year in the early seventies to between 50 and 70 in recent years, the number of killings by the mentally ill has remained steady – and is usually less than six a year. The result: murders by the mentally ill have fallen as a proportion of total homicides from nearly 20 per cent in the early seventies to around 6 per cent today. The study is one of only four in the world to look at time trends in homicides, and is touted to be the most comprehensive. Researchers satisfied ethical and privacy concerns to cross-match data from the police, coroners’ office, Ministry of Health, Justice Department, Parole Board and New Zealand Herald archives. Simpson, who led the research team, says it is significant that the study period coincides not only with deinstitutionalisation but an era of increasing social fragmentation. Rising unemployment, poverty, marriage breakdowns, drug and alcohol abuse and increased exposure to violence are factors which could lead us to expect an increase in mental illness. But the 18 killers judged to be mentally ill in the past five years of the study period compares favourably with the 20 identified in the first five years. "It almost makes me proud that, in a less hospitable world, people with mental illness haven’t succumbed to these pressures in the same way that people without mental illnesses have by murdering more often," says Burdett, who himself has a mental illness. The study for the Mental Health Research and Development Strategy addresses another myth: that community care raises the risk of being killed by a stranger who knocks on the door or "loses it" in the street. Of 84 murders by strangers between 1988 and 2000, only two offenders were mentally ill. The flipsides: mentally "normal" perpetrators are more likely to kill strangers and the mentally ill are more likely to target loved ones and family. Tony O’Brien, senior lecturer in mental health nursing at Auckland University, says the research confirms there’s more reason to fear a drink or drug-affected single young male than someone with a mental illness. "The fact that homicides by the mentally ill have stayed constant over this long period of deinstitutionalisation suggests mental health services are doing a pretty good job of managing the risk." In the cauldron of emotion, science and politics that is mental health, there is reluctance to make too much of the findings, a mere stepping stone in research to improve the delivery of mental health services. The researchers admit the data has limitations and expect robust scrutiny from both the pro-institution lobby and mental health service consumers. "I don’t think you can say it gives community care a free bill of health," says Simpson, clinical director of the Mason Clinic in Auckland. "We’re not saying dreadful things haven’t occurred because of deinstitutionalisation. "Nor are we saying there’s not a case for more acute beds and some long-term beds." When he started at Porirua Hospital in the mid-1980s, there were 1200 beds. Now there are no more than 800 nationwide. But Simpson says it’s important not to romanticise the past. "We would have two or three nurses in a villa with 35 people in it and one doctor in charge. The quality of care we could provide to people in terms of frequency of review and planning of rehabilitation was very limited indeed. "Then when we shifted into the community the resources were never adequate to provide thorough care." <snip details re NZ mental health services Government financing did improve – and Simpson says the homicide study is one indicator that service levels are approaching what is needed. "Have we still got gaps out there – yes, we have. Are we closing them at a rate in which the service can actually grow and improve – I think we probably are. Everyone would say there are quality gains to be made, but we have also come a long, long way." The report offers hope that services are getting it right – most of the time. "It may be that the improved quality of services that people have striven for in the past decade are preventing more tragedies than we may have expected," he says. "That’s the other way of looking at the numbers – we don’t know about all the homicides we have saved." While citing the advent of community support, recovery-based policies, forensic services and better medicines, the study offers pointers for the future. Just over half the mentally ill killers suffered psychotic illnesses such as schizophrenia, conditions associated with delusions and hallucinations that can lead to violence. Half had been admitted to psychiatric hospitals or acute facilities, 10 per cent within the previous month and 20 per cent within the previous year. But most had been admitted only once or twice in the previous five years and nearly a third had no previous contact with mental health services. <snip details re NZ mental health services Does this mean society has nothing to fear from mental illness? Not quite, says Simpson. The mentally ill whose illnesses are not well managed do have a greater tendency to violence than the rest of the population. The second most common diagnosis for mentally ill killers in the New Zealand study was major depression, a common cause of infanticide – which helps to explain the higher proportion of mentally ill women who murder than in "mentally-well" homicides. "If we can decrease the number of people with active psychotic illnesses or provide better care for postnatal depression – these interventions may lead us to reduce homicides even further." <snip details re NZ mental health services Simpson says the statistics also highlight the hairline judgments which must be made on psychiatric risk. It is estimated that 12,000 people have a psychotic illness at any one time. The research found these responsible for half the murders by the mentally ill, maybe two or three each year. "So we are trying to predict a very rare event, a very shocking and horrible event, but nonetheless very rare." rate is on a par with Britain and Australia and a third that of the United States. "If you have a fairly stable home environment and you stay at arm’s length from illicit drugs and alcohol your chances of dying violently by another’s hands are almost zero." Chaplow says more than 30,000 people are in contact with mental health services over the course of a month and perhaps a dozen will come before the courts. "Should we lock up the 30,000? The study also shows that at least 30 per cent [of mentally ill killers] have never come in contact with mental health services. "It’s really a matter of who we target, and we have a better idea now: people with psychotic illnesses and a past history of risk to themselves or others. "But that 30 per cent figure means we also need to say to the community, ‘If you have a loved one who’s acting strangely, who has funny ideas and is frightening you, then get help real quick’."

  Response:

  No comments Alcohol Abuse Recovery
  
  

• Wish me luck…

  Question:

   I didn’t mention I’m getting married later in July!  So I may end up prescribing myself the rest of the Klonopin I still have.  It would be nice to actually enjoy myself at my wedding and honeymoon.

  Hey, I nearly missed this…! This is *great* news, congratulations to both of you!:

  No comments Alcohol Abuse Recovery
  
  

• recovering alcoholic with ED: please help

  Question:

  Since  Viagra still works,  that is a very good sign of a recovery, but it will take time. . My diet is healthy since my gastritis/ulcer, plenty of grains and fruits, yoghurt, dairy, and veggies daily. Lots of chicken, about five times a week I guess.

  Are you still on any stomach medication? What other medicines are  you taking? Ignatz’s Bricks

  Response:

  - Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was four-cups-of-coffee-a-day guy while I was drinking and smoking, but now caffeine makes me go haywire with energy. I have an occasional cup of tea and have had one can of coke since I quit. Body weight is 147 lbs and I’m 5 ft 9 inches. I exercise daily for the most part: karate, biking, and frisbee etc. I also walk about a half mile a day at least. My diet is healthy since my gastritis/ulcer, plenty of grains and fruits, yoghurt, dairy, and veggies daily. Lots of chicken, about five times a week I guess. Red meat about twice a week at most, sometimes none in a week. All seems good. Keep at the diet. Get lots of sunshine, it stimulates testosterone release. Make certain that you get two protein meals a day. Supplement with a protein drink if you can’t find any protein that you’d like to eat twice a day. I suggest you search the net on "Omega-3". This can reverse damage done to blood vessels in your body over a long period of time. Will it improve your condition? No promises.

  Thanks for the advice! By the way, sometimes the problem in your head caused by the problem in your other head reverses much more slowly than the physical parts. I know it often makes people uncomfortable when someone suggests a psychological issue, so I hope you know I mean well. Performance anxiety is almost always a significant part of E.D. in men with E.D., because after the first few failures, the men always fear failure.

  I am a bit concerned with the psychological issues of course. Right now, I have ED both with a woman and when masturbating. The ED symptoms are very similar: hard to get one, hard to keep one, and the only thing that’s not really hard is it! Would psychological factors affect my masturbation? I wouldn’t think so, as I really only fear failure with a woman. Is it best to really delve into these mental issues or just tell myself that all will be okay given enough time? Relax, go with the flow. Learn to accept and grow around your limitations. Keep treating yourself. Pursue good health.

  I’m going, one day atta time! Thanks again! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – C//

  Response:

  I am a 26 year old recovering alcoholic…

  You are an alcoholic. You will _always_ be an alcoholic. If you are lucky, and strong, you will manage not to drink. The sooner you realize this, the better. As soon as you come to understand that you _are_ an alcoholic, you may be willing to make those changes in your life required for you to actually successfully avoid drinking for a long period of time. Hopefully forever, knock on wood. I feel that alcohol is by far the biggest culprit in my ED, …

  The level of alcohol abuse you’ve mentioned could possibly have caused considerable damage to your liver. If you haven’t, you should have liver enzyme panels done. You should also consider having your estrogen levels looked at. I smoked heavily for the last three years and moderately for seven years prior to that, or from the ages of 16 until 26.

  While smoking isn’t good for you, alcohol at the levels you’re prone to is, in my opinion, far, far worse. Keep that in mind. In May of 2001 I started dating another girl, a real beauty, and was honest with her about my ED problem. We were together for about six weeks. I was able to achieve an erection about 40-50% of the time with her, …

  That’s not bad, and you have a lot to work with. I have seen an internal medicine doctor twice about this, both doctors told me to have patience and hope, and that 6-12 months will probably pass before I am sexually healthy again.

  One can’t know. How’s your blood pressure?                                                                                       I have had a testosterone test which was normal (I scored a 480 I believe).

  That’s normal, however I recommend that you have your testosterone drawn and measured quarterly from here on out. I have a Viagra prescription, and it works like a charm, but I do not want to rely on Viagra if I can avoid it (expensive stuff, that!).

  The 100 mg pills cost the same as all the others. Get the 100 mg, quarter them, and try 25 mg. On an empty stomach, 30+ minutes before sex, many men find Viagra to be as effective as the full dose and without the obnoxious side effects. It’s also only $2.50 or so this way. Not bad. 1) How long does this sort of recovery take? What are the minimum and maximum timeframes?

  One can’t know, and it could take a long time. Sometimes alcoholics run to hypertension. If you do, you might be able to correct a good chunk of your problem overnight with an angiotensin 2 inhibitor. How’s your blood pressure? 3) While I have had a testosterone test, should I insist on hormone tests as well?

  Possibly, but it’s not imperative, really. Do you drink caffeine? What’s your body weight? Do you exercise reguarly? On a daily basis, what sort of food do you usually eat? C//

  Response:

  I’m 55, quit drinking heavily at 40 (still have a very occasional beer), drank from about 17 or 18 till 40 so I guess 23 years.  My alcohol of choice was gin; my dad was a functioning alcoholic so I followed in his footsteps. I also smoked alot of marijuana in the late ’60’s. I had some ED all of my life but it got alot worse at 40.  Didn’t get blood tests until 47 so I don’t know how much the alcohol contributed to it.  I see an endocrinologist every 6 months since I inject Depo-Testosterone and we noticed my liver tests would be abnormal (SGOT, SPGT) after only one beer in the few days previous to the blood draw, so I cut out even the one beer now and then and the tests went to normal.  At parties I get a beer and pour it down the drain when nobodie’s looking and replace it with water. Sex is better than it’s ever been, I mean once a day easily or more if my girlfriend can put up with it. But that’s with aerobic exercise & weightlifting (the testosterone makes me unusually muscular for my age), shots of Test, viagra (1/4 to 1/2 tab), and yohimbe (only a little so I can sleep at night –it can keep you awake all night if you take too much). With all this health the only problem I have is osteoarthritis and disc degeneration in my spine, which is another age related problem I haven’t found a cure for (yet).   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Good advice James, thanks! How old are you? What age did you quit drinking? How long did you drink? Please answer, I appreciate it! I truly value my pecker, I am done with booze. Sex is the biggest monkey on my back, and it kicked the crap out of the other monkeys. I now know I was really hurting myself with booze, and just want to be healthy (sexually and otherwise) again. Thanks! Get the bike seat with the groove down the middle that’s supposed to protect your penis nerves. Try substituting some other exercise for biking, like running.  Aerobic exercise helps build more capillaries; It’ll improve the blood supply to your dick. Running alot has always always made me hornier, but it takes a few days and if you overdo it you’ll be impotent from too much exercise!  Stop drinking caffeine. I would go to an endocrinologist and get hormone tests.  Liver damage could effect both peripheral nerves (to your penis) and your bodies ability to use testosterone, but I think some of the nerve damage may be slightly reversible, although I can’t prove it.  I am an alcoholic who is now on testerone replacement. With no alcohol and alot of exercise and good eating habits, I’ve lost 30 pounds and have plenty of horniness.  But it took a long time, like a few years, to get recovered.  You have to stay off alcohol though if you value your dick. Not even one drink before sex. better yet, no drinks at all, ever. (I know that’s hard in a social setting.) I exercise daily for the most part: karate, biking, and frisbee etc. I also walk about a half mile a day at least. My diet is healthy since my gastritis/ulcer, plenty of grains and fruits, yoghurt, dairy, and veggies daily. Lots of chicken, about five times a week I guess. Red meat about twice a week at most, sometimes none in a week. Biking could be a problem.  I hope some of the "experts" on this will respond here. I have definitely cut down on biking in the last few months out of concern, and am going to buy a saddle seat as soon as I can. Better safe than sorry! But, I believe the verdict is still out on this issue. Any comments from anyone on this are appreciated! Also, you diet, while it look pretty healthy, may be low in zinc. Consider taking a zinc supplement.  You can find a zinc tablet in the men’s section of GNC that contains copper and other trace minerals that are essential to good penis health. Will do!

  Response:

  Get the bike seat with the groove down the middle that’s supposed to protect your penis nerves. Try substituting some other exercise for biking, like running.  Aerobic exercise helps build more capillaries; It’ll improve the blood supply to your dick. Running alot has always always made me hornier, but it takes a few days and if you overdo it you’ll be impotent from too much exercise!  Stop drinking caffeine. I would go to an endocrinologist and get hormone tests.  Liver damage could effect both peripheral nerves (to your penis) and your bodies ability to use testosterone, but I think some of the nerve damage may be slightly reversible, although I can’t prove it.  I am an alcoholic who is now on testerone replacement. With no alcohol and alot of exercise and good eating habits, I’ve lost 30 pounds and have plenty of horniness.  But it took a long time, like a few years, to get recovered.  You have to stay off alcohol though if you value your dick. Not even one drink before sex. better yet, no drinks at all, ever. (I know that’s hard in a social setting.) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I exercise daily for the most part: karate, biking, and frisbee etc. I also walk about a half mile a day at least. My diet is healthy since my gastritis/ulcer, plenty of grains and fruits, yoghurt, dairy, and veggies daily. Lots of chicken, about five times a week I guess. Red meat about twice a week at most, sometimes none in a week. Biking could be a problem.  I hope some of the "experts" on this will respond here. I have definitely cut down on biking in the last few months out of concern, and am going to buy a saddle seat as soon as I can. Better safe than sorry! But, I believe the verdict is still out on this issue. Any comments from anyone on this are appreciated! Also, you diet, while it look pretty healthy, may be low in zinc.  Consider taking a zinc supplement.  You can find a zinc tablet in the men’s section of GNC that contains copper and other trace minerals that are essential to good penis health. Will do!

  Response:

  Good advice James, thanks! How old are you? What age did you quit drinking? How long did you drink? Please answer, I appreciate it! I truly value my pecker, I am done with booze. Sex is the biggest monkey on my back, and it kicked the crap out of the other monkeys. I now know I was really hurting myself with booze, and just want to be healthy (sexually and otherwise) again. Thanks!

  – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Get the bike seat with the groove down the middle that’s supposed to protect your penis nerves. Try substituting some other exercise for biking, like running.  Aerobic exercise helps build more capillaries; It’ll improve the blood supply to your dick. Running alot has always always made me hornier, but it takes a few days and if you overdo it you’ll be impotent from too much exercise!  Stop drinking caffeine. I would go to an endocrinologist and get hormone tests.  Liver damage could effect both peripheral nerves (to your penis) and your bodies ability to use testosterone, but I think some of the nerve damage may be slightly reversible, although I can’t prove it.  I am an alcoholic who is now on testerone replacement. With no alcohol and alot of exercise and good eating habits, I’ve lost 30 pounds and have plenty of horniness.  But it took a long time, like a few years, to get recovered.  You have to stay off alcohol though if you value your dick. Not even one drink before sex. better yet, no drinks at all, ever. (I know that’s hard in a social setting.)

  – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I exercise daily for the most part: karate, biking, and frisbee etc. I also walk about a half mile a day at least. My diet is healthy since my gastritis/ulcer, plenty of grains and fruits, yoghurt, dairy, and veggies daily. Lots of chicken, about five times a week I guess. Red meat about twice a week at most, sometimes none in a week. Biking could be a problem.  I hope some of the "experts" on this will respond here. I have definitely cut down on biking in the last few months out of concern, and am going to buy a saddle seat as soon as I can. Better safe than sorry! But, I believe the verdict is still out on this issue. Any comments from anyone on this are appreciated! Also, you diet, while it look pretty healthy, may be low in zinc. Consider taking a zinc supplement.  You can find a zinc tablet in the men’s section of GNC that contains copper and other trace minerals that are essential to good penis health. Will do!

  Response:

  Any thoughts from the group on L-Arginine? Fad or fact?

  L-Arginine taken orally is of scant value unless you are taking massive doses. It is, however, of great value to both men and women in the cream form which is absorbed directly into the sex organ.   My wife and I have both been using an L-Arginine cream we purchased from Dr. Leonard’s catalog with good effect for both of us.   I just recently found out that RX3K is offering tow L-Arginine creams for men and women.  I have ordered one of each and I will report here on how they work and how they compare in price to Dr. Leonard. The address if you are interested is: http://www.rx3k.com/ Look under special products, "sexsation."

  Response:

  I exercise daily for the most part: karate, biking, and frisbee etc. I also walk about a half mile a day at least. My diet is healthy since my gastritis/ulcer, plenty of grains and fruits, yoghurt, dairy, and veggies daily. Lots of chicken, about five times a week I guess. Red meat about twice a week at most, sometimes none in a week. Biking could be a problem.  I hope some of the "experts" on this will respond here.

  I have definitely cut down on biking in the last few months out of concern, and am going to buy a saddle seat as soon as I can. Better safe than sorry! But, I believe the verdict is still out on this issue. Any comments from anyone on this are appreciated! Also, you diet, while it look pretty healthy, may be low in zinc.  Consider taking a zinc supplement.  You can find a zinc tablet in the men’s section of GNC that contains copper and other trace minerals that are essential to good penis health.

  Will do!

  Response:

                                                                  Would psychological factors affect my masturbation? I wouldn’t think so, as I really only fear failure with a woman. Is it best to really delve into these mental issues or just tell myself that all will be okay given enough time?

  Nope. You’re quite right, you’re problem is most likely mostly physical if you have similar problems while masturbating and with a woman. As for therapy,  the only kind of therapy worth having is a woman who genuinely cares about you and can support you as you are. You’re problem is physical. It may improve with time. You may wish to do some research on daily just-before-bed micro doses of Viagra. I also suggest that you make daily Flax Seed Oil (1-2 tablespoons) a part of your diet in some way. Read up on "Omega 3" and "essential fatty acids" on the internet. C//

  Response:

  Since  Viagra still works,  that is a very good sign of a recovery, but it will take time.

  Thanks for the confidence vote! Are you still on any stomach medication?

  Nope, occasionally I take non-prescription Zantac if I eat wrong. That occurs about once a month maybe. FYI, my prescription stomach pills were prescription-strength Zantac. What other medicines are  you taking?

  None, though I am taking a multivitamin, a B100 supplement, Gingko Biloba, and just started L-Arginine supplements on a tip that it is common for alcoholics to have low nitrous oxide, which can cause ED. Any thoughts from the group on L-Arginine? Fad or fact?

  Response:

  Any thoughts from the group on L-Arginine? Fad or fact?

  This is good stuff. However, it’s can be difficult to get the right amount, which is actually something like 5,000-10,000 mg a day. Fortunately, if you buy arginine in bulk, it’s pretty cheap: http://www.kilosports.com C//

  Response:

  I am a 26 year old recovering alcoholic… You are an alcoholic. You will _always_ be an alcoholic. If you are lucky, and strong, you will manage not to drink. The sooner you realize this, the better. As soon as you come to understand that you _are_ an alcoholic, you may be willing to make those changes in your life required for you to actually successfully avoid drinking for a long period of time. Hopefully forever, knock on wood.

  Yes, thanks and I know I will always be an alcoholic. Was just trying to be optimistic and let people know that I had stopped for a while. Even now I want a drink, as I sit here and write about this great shame caused by drinking! Weird world, ain’t it? I feel that alcohol is by far the biggest culprit in my ED, … The level of alcohol abuse you’ve mentioned could possibly have caused considerable damage to your liver. If you haven’t, you should have liver enzyme panels done. You should also consider having your estrogen levels looked at.

  I did have the liver tests done, all came back normal thank goodness. As did kidney test as well. I’m not sure about estrogen, but will ask my doctor. Thanks for the tip! (snip) In May of 2001 I started dating another girl, a real beauty, and was honest with her about my ED problem. We were together for about six weeks. I was able to achieve an erection about 40-50% of the time with her, … That’s not bad, and you have a lot to work with.

  Keep your fingers crossed! I have seen an internal medicine doctor twice about this, both doctors told me to have patience and hope, and that 6-12 months will probably pass before I am sexually healthy again. One can’t know. How’s your blood pressure?

  Blood pressure was normal, can’t remember the numbers but normal. (snip) 1) How long does this sort of recovery take? What are the minimum and maximum timeframes? One can’t know, and it could take a long time. Sometimes alcoholics run to hypertension. If you do, you might be able to correct a good chunk of your problem overnight with an angiotensin 2 inhibitor. How’s your blood pressure?

  How do I test for hypertension? (snip) Do you drink caffeine? What’s your body weight? Do you exercise reguarly? On a daily basis, what sort of food do you usually eat?

  I was four-cups-of-coffee-a-day guy while I was drinking and smoking, but now caffeine makes me go haywire with energy. I have an occasional cup of tea and have had one can of coke since I quit. Body weight is 147 lbs and I’m 5 ft 9 inches. I exercise daily for the most part: karate, biking, and frisbee etc. I also walk about a half mile a day at least. My diet is healthy since my gastritis/ulcer, plenty of grains and fruits, yoghurt, dairy, and veggies daily. Lots of chicken, about five times a week I guess. Red meat about twice a week at most, sometimes none in a week. Thanks C! I appreciate it! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – C//

  Response:

  I was four-cups-of-coffee-a-day guy while I was drinking and smoking, but now caffeine makes me go haywire with energy. I have an occasional cup of tea and have had one can of coke since I quit. Body weight is 147 lbs and I’m 5 ft 9 inches. I exercise daily for the most part: karate, biking, and frisbee etc. I also walk about a half mile a day at least. My diet is healthy since my gastritis/ulcer, plenty of grains and fruits, yoghurt, dairy, and veggies daily. Lots of chicken, about five times a week I guess. Red meat about twice a week at most, sometimes none in a week.

  All seems good. Keep at the diet. Get lots of sunshine, it stimulates testosterone release. Make certain that you get two protein meals a day. Supplement with a protein drink if you can’t find any protein that you’d like to eat twice a day. I suggest you search the net on "Omega-3". This can reverse damage done to blood vessels in your body over a long period of time. Will it improve your condition? No promises. By the way, sometimes the problem in your head caused by the problem in your other head reverses much more slowly than the physical parts. I know it often makes people uncomfortable when someone suggests a psychological issue, so I hope you know I mean well. Performance anxiety is almost always a significant part of E.D. in men with E.D., because after the first few failures, the men always fear failure. Relax, go with the flow. Learn to accept and grow around your limitations. Keep treating yourself. Pursue good health. C//

  Response:

  I exercise daily for the most part: karate, biking, and frisbee etc. I also walk about a half mile a day at least. My diet is healthy since my gastritis/ulcer, plenty of grains and fruits, yoghurt, dairy, and veggies daily. Lots of chicken, about five times a week I guess. Red meat about twice a week at most, sometimes none in a week.

  Biking could be a problem.  I hope some of the "experts" on this will respond here. Also, you diet, while it look pretty healthy, may be low in zinc.  Consider taking a zinc supplement.  You can find a zinc tablet in the men’s section of GNC that contains copper and other trace minerals that are essential to good penis health.

  Response:

  Hi Everyone, I am a 26 year old recovering alcoholic and recovering pot smoker suffering from erectile dysfunction (ED).  I very much want to learn more about my condition from other folks in this group, both out of curiosity and so I know what to expect over the course of my recovery. I am interested in hearing from anyone with info, especially former or current alcoholics who can relate similar experiences. I have combed through the archives of this newsgroup, and of the alt.recovery.addiction.alcoholism newsgroup, but have not found the info I need. If the relevant post exists, please point me towards it. My primary reason for quitting drinking and smoking pot was the ED, and so my primary concern in recovery is how long I will have to wait until my sexual function returns to normal. Or, am I permanently damaged? I feel that alcohol is by far the biggest culprit in my ED, though I’m sure all the weed did not help. Below I have given brief overviews of my drinking, smoking, sexual, and general health history, followed by my ‘current status’. This is both FYI and for the record, as I hope this post will help others in the future. I feel this issue sits at the nexus of three taboos in American culture: sex, booze, and drugs. The more info I can unearth and share on this the better. I know you all understand the importance of this to me, and I very much appreciate in advance any help, advice, or shared experience you can give. Drinking history: I drank a minimum of 15 ounces of mostly whiskey a night for at least the last eight years, and often would consume probably 60 ounces of whiskey several nights a week, frequently blacking out, soiling myself during sleep, and other such pleasantries. I rarely abstained during this eight year period. For three years prior to this heavy use period, I drank to get drunk at least three nights a week and would often blackout. So, that makes about 11 years of drinking from the age of 15 until 26, with the last eight years being the worst. I did briefly abstain from alcohol following an ulcer and gastritis in Spring 2000, and did not drink for probably two and a half months. Following this episode, I drank white russians (milk, vodka, kahlua) and eventually got back into whiskey by Winter 2000. I kept this drinking up until May of this year, and have now not touched alcohol in 63 days. Pot smoking history: I smoked heavily for the last three years and moderately for seven years prior to that, or from the ages of 16 until 26. By heavily I mean first thing in the morning, during lunch, and immediately after work and then every few hours until bedtime. By moderately I mean immediately after work and then every few hours until bedtime. I rarely abstained during this ten year period. I kept up the heavy use until June of this year, and have now not smoked for 25 days. Relevant Sexual History: I had a fantastic sex life beginning at age 16 until age 25, with my last totally normal and successful period of intercourse occurring during April 2000. Shortly after, I developed an ulcer and gastritis due to alcoholism, and became sickly enough that sex was not an option for me for several months. I first noticed my ED problem in October of 2000 when I took a girl home from a bar. I was drunk that night, of course, and did not think much of the problem though I did take note of it. I paid more attention to my penis after this incident, and decided that something was indeed amiss: I lacked feeling in the penis, arousal was difficult, and sex drive was diminished. In addition, my penis had a somewhat limp and shrunken look, like it was always cold would be the best way to describe it. In April of 2001 I was again with a girl, this time I had had one beer and was very much in love with her as she was an old girlfriend, and yet I failed to perform. I did get a 70%-full erection after extensive foreplay, but lost it a few minutes after insertion. It was then I began to really acknowledge my problem with alcohol and its affect on my sex life. In May of 2001 I started dating another girl, a real beauty, and was honest with her about my ED problem. We were together for about six weeks. I was able to achieve an erection about 40-50% of the time with her, though it was never the full erection that I hoped for. Once I realized the ED problem was not magically going to go away, I decided to quit drinking. One month after I quit drinking, I quit smoking pot as my ED condition had not improved and I figured ‘what the hell’. I have no traumatic childhood sexual experiences, and was extremely confident in my sexual ability until these episodes began. I have always been a daily masturbator until these problems began. General Health: I am 5 feet 9 inches tall and weigh 147 pounds. I eat a balanced diet, have little body fat,  and exercise regularly. I quit drinking 63 days ago and quit smoking 25 days ago. I have not smoked cigarettes in six years. In Spring 2000 I had an ulcer and gastritis which caused me to lose about 30 pounds, some of which I am struggling to put back on with no luck. Other than the heavy drinking and smoking, I consider myself quite healthy and even somewhat athletic. I am often a bit depressed and melancholy, which is why I got into drinking in the first place, but am generally enough of a stubborn bastard that I do not feel this affects my sexual ability. I have always had an extremely positive view of sex. Current Status: I have not had a drink in 63 days and have not smoked in 25 days. I am not in a sexual relationship now, but was until a few weeks ago. At that point, I could achieve mostly full erection about 40-50% of the time. Foreplay made no difference, if it worked it worked right away. If not, it just wouldn’t work. I would also lose the erection unless I penetrated quickly, and would also often lose the erection if we tried anything but missionary style, and no way was oral doing the trick. Ejaculation was normal if everything came into place. Following the end of this relationship, I now masturbate to keep track of whats happening, and my ability to achieve erection seems to be improving though this may be wishful thinking. I can achieve an erection within a few minutes of trying, and sometimes it is even as firm as I fondly remember it should be. I have seen an internal medicine doctor twice about this, both doctors told me to have patience and hope, and that 6-12 months will probably pass before I am sexually healthy again. I have had a testosterone test which was normal (I scored a 480 I believe). I have a Viagra prescription, and it works like a charm, but I do not want to rely on Viagra if I can avoid it (expensive stuff, that!). I get nighttime erections I know, but I’m not sure on their frequency. If I had to guess I would say not every night, as I do not always wake up with one. Well, that sums it up. I would really appreciate any general comments, input, or advice on this, or if anyone can answer these questions: 1) How long does this sort of recovery take? What are the minimum and maximum timeframes? 2) What are the odds that I will return to ‘normal’, i.e. return to the ability to have an erection when I need one, or have a spontaneous erection? 3) While I have had a testosterone test, should I insist on hormone tests as well? 4) How common is this sort of experience? Thanks very much everyone. One more thing, I was indoctrinated in high school just like everyone else with messages that alcohol would make one unable to do good in school, unable to get a good job, and unable to have a good life. I did well in school, I have a good job, and my life is pretty good (other than the alcoholism and addiction and ED of course). Never once was I told that booze would wreck my pecker, or I surely would have taken note. Those of you in the position to influence a young man, please tell him that fact. Had I known, I surely would have stopped drinking the first time it happened!

  Response:

  No comments Alcohol Abuse Recovery
  
  

• New to this

  Question:

  I have recently read the symproms of OCD and find that I have many. I have been in a 12 step recovery group for 16 years.  Over the years I knew that I had an obseessive compulsive personality.  I have seen my obsessions and compulsions get worse over the years. I understand that there are behavioral treatments and medicine treatments. I am more interested in begavioral treatments.  I am hoping for suggestions. I would like to stay away from medicine for now but I understand that it is an option. Are there any diet suggestions.  I know from experience that caffiene can set me up.  I am currently taking St. John’s Wort and Ginseng.  Do these herbs help OCD at all?  Are there any foods or herbs that make OCD worse. Thanks for any help that can be given. Don

  Response:

  There are some studies that suggest the B vitiman Inositol (sp) may be an effective treatment of OCD. Other than that there is little in the way of "natural" treatments. Cognitive behavioral therapy works well for the majority of people who go thru it and has good long term results as well. You will want to look for someone who really knows about the treatment of OCD not just someone who says they do cognitive therapy. I always recomend asking lots of questions. The first line medications that are used to treat OCD are antidepressants which are not addictive and therefor not a problem for people who have problems with drug or alcohol abuse. Many people who are involved in 12 step movements use the terms obsessive compulsive in a way that differs from the deffinition of OCD and this sometimes leads to confusion. The other confusing idea is that OCD and obsessive compulsive personality disorder are closely related. The names are similar but the disorders are very different. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -kcwags wrote: > I have recently read the symproms of OCD and find that I have many. > I have been in a 12 step recovery group for 16 years.  Over the years I knew > that I had an obseessive compulsive personality.  I have seen my obsessions > and compulsions get worse over the years. > I understand that there are behavioral treatments and medicine treatments. > I am more interested in begavioral treatments.  I am hoping for suggestions. > I would like to stay away from medicine for now but I understand that it is > an option. > Are there any diet suggestions.  I know from experience that caffiene can > set me up.  I am currently taking St. John’s Wort and Ginseng.  Do these > herbs help OCD at all?  Are there any foods or herbs that make OCD worse. > Thanks for any help that can be given. > Don

  – Jim Claiborn Ph.D. ABPP J-Claiborn-…@worldnet.att.net If I survive this life without dying I’ll be supprised. Mulla Nasrudin

  Response:

  On Sat, 21 Mar 1998 21:03:05 -0500, James Claiborn <J-Claiborn-…@worldnet.att.net> wrote: >There are some studies that suggest the B vitiman Inositol (sp) may be >an effective treatment of OCD. Other than that there is little in the >way of "natural" treatments.

  A lobotomy works well, is forever and you never mention it as a possible treatment.

  Response:

  Although I assume you are joking it is actually true that sometimes brain surgery but not lobotomys are still done as treatment for OCD. I would argue that they dont seem to work very well however. In the material I have seen the people who do have this type of treatment there is usually still a lot of OCD left over. You are right it is forever. handy wrote: > On Sat, 21 Mar 1998 21:03:05 -0500, James Claiborn > <J-Claiborn-…@worldnet.att.net> wrote: > A lobotomy works well, is forever and you never mention it as a > possible treatment.

  – Jim Claiborn Ph.D. ABPP J-Claiborn-…@worldnet.att.net If I survive this life without dying I’ll be supprised. Mulla Nasrudin

  Response:

  Thanks so much Steve, I will contact her. It is one thing to suffer and another to see your child suffer. Thanks for the hugs, Annmarie The brown eyed lady

  Response:

  Gretchen, Aw, shucks….a great mother would have a miracle or two up her sleeve! I am sorry you lost your parents. I am saddened by some of what I read here. I hope our support will make a difference to my son and his journey to be well.  In the meantime, I cook to relieve my stress.  He may have OCD but he is well fed!  I make a killer oriental chicken salad! Anybody need a cheeseball recipe? Have a good night, Cindy * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

  Response:

  Cindy, I know what you are going through with your son. I have OCD and my son, Matt, started having symptoms at age 3 or 4 years old. Now he is 7 and he gets stuck in hurting himself. He says to me,"Mommy make the OCD go away". I try to tell him everything will be okay and on the inside I am crying my heart out for him. Tears are streaming down my face just writing this. Yesterday was really hard for him. He kept biting the inside of his mouth and he couldn’t stop it. I just kept hugging him. He goes to therapy and is on Prozac. I feel like giving up on my own OCD but I can’t because of my son. Maybe you should go to therapy to help you cope. It can’t make things worse. You sound like a great mother. I will pray for your son too. God Bless, Annmarie The brown eyed lady

  Response:

  Thank you, Ann Marie. I will keep you and your son in my thoughts.  I have read a book called "Brain Lock" by Jeffrey Schwartz, MD recently. I found it very helpful.  It’s kind of a self help BT.  It gives my son and me hope and a course of action.  His bad day yesterday was made a little better by following the steps in the book. Cindy * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

  Response:

  M+A B. wrote: > I have OCD and my son, Matt, started having symptoms at age 3 > or 4 years old. Now he is 7 and he gets stuck in hurting himself. > He says to me,"Mommy make the OCD go away". I try to tell him > everything will be okay and on the inside I am crying my heart out > for him. Tears are streaming down my face just writing this.

  Hi Annmarie (and any other parents here), Do you know that there is an "OCD and Parenting" support list? I can’t track it down at the moment but I’ve been told that it’s very good. If you e-mail Mary (her address is mary…@lightwire.net ) then she can point you in the right direction. Say that "Steve sent you…"   Big hugs to you, ((((Annmarie)))) Take care. Kind regards, Steve ~ http://www.mybookmarks.com/public/Steve_George ~ steph…@georgeharris.freeserve.co.uk ~ Fax & Voicemail: (+44) 0704 470 0528

  Response:

  Cindy, I also think getting support from home is very important.  Both my parents are passed away.  I got diagnosed after they were gone.  I tried telling my grandmother what I had and she wouldn’t listen.  She was a great woman, but didn’t believe in that kind of diagnoses.  She use to say that nothing was wrong with me and just stop worrying.  She would just say, "The devil always finds time for an idle mind."  I wished she just could understand what I was going through.  So you son is very lucky to have your support.  You are a great mother! Take Care, Gretchen Brian W. Major <majo…@mcmaster.ca> wrote in message news:38A4AD67.29E897E6@mcmaster.ca… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi Cindy, > Thanks for your post.  Yes, I think your son would enjoy reading and posting > here.  I am currently in university, and have both OCD and Bipolar Disorder. > The best thing is for your son to have the support.  Do you have any self-help > groups in your area?  It’s important not to feel alone, especially when doing > something new like starting school.  It also sounds like he’s getting some > support from you at home.  That is also very important! > Brian > Cindy wrote: > > My 18 yr old son has OCD.  He has known for years, I have known since > > Christmas. I just thought he was a little quirky.  He was hospitalized > > briefly and is taking Prozac. He is in therapy once a week.  He gets > > discouraged and so do I.  It is painful to watch him struggle to fight > > through the layers of compulsions and rituals that have accumulated > > over so many years.  He has been accepted at a university for fall/2000 > > and while I was talking this morning to the university psychiatrist, > > she suggested that I try to find some support online.  I’m not sure if > > this is where I should be looking or if this would be better suited to > > my son.  You are all very interesting and I have already picked up some > > info from you and I thank you. > > * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * > > The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

  Response:

  Cindy <tb3NOtbS…@voyager.net.invalid> wrote:

   > I have millions of questions and concerns but  > first things first.  Thank you, Cindy Hi, Cindy.  I tried replying to you privately by E-mail with pointers to other resources, but voyager.net doesn’t seem to have heard of you. I removed NO, SPAM, and ".invalid" from your address – is the rest of it correct?

  Response:

  Hi Cindy, and welcome! I have a 15 year old with OCD.  He’s been diagnosed since  age 10/11. School is the one thing that is his nightmare.  He talks about going to college, but if he can get through the next day of the 9th grade…that’s  about all I can hope for right now. Take Care, Mynx  :O) On Fri, 11 Feb 2000 11:07:17 -0800, Cindy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<tb3NOtbS…@voyager.net.invalid> wrote: >My 18 yr old son has OCD.  He has known for years, I have known since >Christmas. I just thought he was a little quirky.  He was hospitalized >briefly and is taking Prozac. He is in therapy once a week.  He gets >discouraged and so do I.  It is painful to watch him struggle to fight >through the layers of compulsions and rituals that have accumulated >over so many years.  He has been accepted at a university for fall/2000 >and while I was talking this morning to the university psychiatrist, >she suggested that I try to find some support online.  I’m not sure if >this is where I should be looking or if this would be better suited to >my son.  You are all very interesting and I have already picked up some >info from you and I thank you. >* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * >The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

  Response:

  Hi Mynx, Thank you for writing.  I feel for you and your son.15 years old is hard enough on child and parent without OCD tossed in.  My son believes he has been OCD since about 6 or 7.  That is when he first remembers counting and other things.  Help and hope, one day at a time. Sincerely, Cindy * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

  Response:

  Hi Aimee, I wish I could describe how Shaun looks today. His eyes are dilated-like black saucers.  He’s flicking, tapping, walking weird to avoid the spots around the house (car etc.) that have become contaminated with a negative thought that he’s trying to keep from becoming permanently embedded in his mind.  It’s some kind of "game" that gets more complex just when it seems like he’s winning.  He says that if he makes it too easy to avoid coming in contact with the negative thought, then what would be the point of doing it at all? With all that going on, he still went to the library to study.  He thinks a change of environment will help.  I worry when he drives.  His stamina is incredible.  I know he’s exhausted but still he goes on.  He humbles me and worries me to death.  I want to help him so much.  He’s been on Prozac for 6-7 weeks and he says he is working on not doing some compulsions (like tapping his pen when he writes).  Shouldn’t his symptoms be getting better by now?  Geez, I’ve got a lot pent up.  And this is so hard to explain and I don’t want to make you feel like you have to answer questions that may have no answers.  How can I send this kid off to college? I think maybe I need a therapist. Thanks for listening, Cindy * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

  Response:

  Hi Cindy!! I am glad to hear that your son is interested in the newsgroup! Gr8 first step! I was on Prozac but I really did not find it all the helpful with my OCD maybe my depression. I heard alot of good things about PAXIL and Klonopin. I am gonna talk to my doc about this. I have been pretty much unresponsive to anything else. I engage in the "touch everything" behavior too. I mean I was big time touching things this morn and my dad was looking at me but I am glad he understands so I was not all that embarrassed. The studying part that he is dealing with can be stressful. So hard to concentrate when your mind is racing and thinking OCD!! I hope he gets all the help he deserves!! Aimee Cindy <tb3NOtbS…@voyager.net.invalid> wrote in message

  news:01d53dad.e9fc093a@usw-ex0107-050.remarq.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi Naomi, > No apology necessary.  I told my son this morning that I found this > newsgroup and he seems a bit interested.  He says if I’m going to ask > anything, to ask about medications.  He doesn’t think his is helping > (and I’m not so sure either) and I think he’s interested in what kind > of relief he could or should expect. This is why I want him to post for > himself.  He’s having a pretty bad day today. Now that his OCD is out > of the closet, so to speak, he is less concermed with hiding his > compulsions and I can tell by the way he is moving around and touching > things that today won’t be good.  Hasn’t been for a few days.  He has a > lot of reading homework to do and because of his compulsions, just > turning a page is a hassle,in his words.  Gotta go, Cindy > * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * > The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

  Response:

  Hi Naomi, No apology necessary.  I told my son this morning that I found this newsgroup and he seems a bit interested.  He says if I’m going to ask anything, to ask about medications.  He doesn’t think his is helping (and I’m not so sure either) and I think he’s interested in what kind of relief he could or should expect. This is why I want him to post for himself.  He’s having a pretty bad day today. Now that his OCD is out of the closet, so to speak, he is less concermed with hiding his compulsions and I can tell by the way he is moving around and touching things that today won’t be good.  Hasn’t been for a few days.  He has a lot of reading homework to do and because of his compulsions, just turning a page is a hassle,in his words.  Gotta go, Cindy * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

  Response:

  On Fri, 11 Feb 2000 20:48:21 GMT, nm…@execulink.com (naomi) wrote: >Hi Cindy, and welcome. You’re not the first parent of someone with OCD >to post here, I can think of at least three others off the top of my >head. But I think it’s good that you’re willing to give support to >your son. Keep posting and reading, you will find a lot of great info >here. >naomi

  Self-correction: No "but." It’s good that you’re willing to give support to your son. I didn’t mean to make it sound like as a parent you are less welcome than an OCD sufferer. I’m sorry if I gave that impression, parents of sufferers do post here quite a bit and I think that’s a good thing. sorry, naomi – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->On Fri, 11 Feb 2000 11:07:17 -0800, Cindy ><tb3NOtbS…@voyager.net.invalid> wrote: >>My 18 yr old son has OCD.  He has known for years, I have known since >>Christmas. I just thought he was a little quirky.  He was hospitalized >>briefly and is taking Prozac. He is in therapy once a week.  He gets >>discouraged and so do I.  It is painful to watch him struggle to fight >>through the layers of compulsions and rituals that have accumulated >>over so many years.  He has been accepted at a university for fall/2000 >>and while I was talking this morning to the university psychiatrist, >>she suggested that I try to find some support online.  I’m not sure if >>this is where I should be looking or if this would be better suited to >>my son.  You are all very interesting and I have already picked up some >>info from you and I thank you. >>* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * >>The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

  Response:

  Hi, Brian, Yes, there are self-help groups here.  He’s not interested as yet. I think he is so used to dealing with his problems independently, it would feel odd to him to talk about it.  I guess you could say that he also has a multiple diagnosis.  He is visually impaired from a disease called Stargardt’s that affects the macula of the eye.  He has little central vision-uses mostly peripheral. This was diagnosed three years ago. His compensatory abilities are amazing.  I had no clue of what he has been battling.  He snowboards, rollerblades,is an honor student and is bi-lingual.  He was an exchange student in Madrid last year for a semester. I’m his mom, I have to brag a bit.  I’m still just so bewildered. I have done quite a bit of reading and am getting a handle on what he is facing. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

  Response:

  Yep, that’s it after taking out the NOxxSPAM thing.  I’m not experienced yet in the ways of computers.  Learning as I go.                     Cindy * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

  Response:

  Hi Cindy, Thanks for your post.  Yes, I think your son would enjoy reading and posting here.  I am currently in university, and have both OCD and Bipolar Disorder. The best thing is for your son to have the support.  Do you have any self-help groups in your area?  It’s important not to feel alone, especially when doing something new like starting school.  It also sounds like he’s getting some support from you at home.  That is also very important! Brian – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Cindy wrote: > My 18 yr old son has OCD.  He has known for years, I have known since > Christmas. I just thought he was a little quirky.  He was hospitalized > briefly and is taking Prozac. He is in therapy once a week.  He gets > discouraged and so do I.  It is painful to watch him struggle to fight > through the layers of compulsions and rituals that have accumulated > over so many years.  He has been accepted at a university for fall/2000 > and while I was talking this morning to the university psychiatrist, > she suggested that I try to find some support online.  I’m not sure if > this is where I should be looking or if this would be better suited to > my son.  You are all very interesting and I have already picked up some > info from you and I thank you. > * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * > The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

  Response:

  Hi again Cindy- I think I might understand what your son is going through. Maybe he is not ready to  talk about it in detail yet? Perhaps he is a bit embarrassed about what goes through his mind? I know for me…there are some things that I do not share or want anyone to know what rapidly runs through my mind all the time. He could be feeling a bit isolated and alone which is why I think this NG and support groups would be a great first step for your son. I was very stubborn (still am) about going to support groups but I really found them helpful and therapeutic in my efforts to feel less alone and ways of dealing with my OCD rather than to giving into it and driving myself completely crazy all the time. I found more ways of trying to control the OCD rather than it controlling me. OCD made (still does) me very irritable and I was not motivated for any kind of help for the longest time. I was too involved in my OCD and feared that I would never get the help that I needed. Just seemed like a no win situation. But I was wrong, there is help is you want it. Did I make any kind of sense? hee hee Aimee Cindy <tb3NOtbS…@voyager.net.invalid> wrote in message

  news:03793b48.e548550d@usw-ex0107-050.remarq.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Dear Aimee, > Thank you for the warm welcome.  My son is on 60mg of prozac and we are > unsure of its benefits so far.  When he left the hospital, part of > their suggestions were for him to attend a support group.  He turns up > his nose at that.  He is busy with school, and when not, with his > social life.  He was glued to the 20/20 program and empathized with the > patients but I think it also scared him.  It is clear he is interested > in others who suffer from OCD. It seems obvious to me what the benefits > are to a support group and a newsgroup like this but I wonder if you or > others would share what you gain from this forum so that I can drag him > to the computer and get him involved.  He needs to know there is a > place he can go where the people are already educated about OCD.  He is > very tired of bringing us (family and friends) up to speed on what goes > on in his mind in order to have an intelligent conversation about it. > Does that make sense?  I have millions of questions and concerns but > first things first.  Thank you, Cindy > * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * > The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

  Response:

  Dear Aimee, Thank you for the warm welcome.  My son is on 60mg of prozac and we are unsure of its benefits so far.  When he left the hospital, part of their suggestions were for him to attend a support group.  He turns up his nose at that.  He is busy with school, and when not, with his social life.  He was glued to the 20/20 program and empathized with the patients but I think it also scared him.  It is clear he is interested in others who suffer from OCD. It seems obvious to me what the benefits are to a support group and a newsgroup like this but I wonder if you or others would share what you gain from this forum so that I can drag him to the computer and get him involved.  He needs to know there is a place he can go where the people are already educated about OCD.  He is very tired of bringing us (family and friends) up to speed on what goes on in his mind in order to have an intelligent conversation about it. Does that make sense?  I have millions of questions and concerns but first things first.  Thank you, Cindy * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

  Response:

  Hi Cindy, and welcome. You’re not the first parent of someone with OCD to post here, I can think of at least three others off the top of my head. But I think it’s good that you’re willing to give support to your son. Keep posting and reading, you will find a lot of great info here. naomi On Fri, 11 Feb 2000 11:07:17 -0800, Cindy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<tb3NOtbS…@voyager.net.invalid> wrote: >My 18 yr old son has OCD.  He has known for years, I have known since >Christmas. I just thought he was a little quirky.  He was hospitalized >briefly and is taking Prozac. He is in therapy once a week.  He gets >discouraged and so do I.  It is painful to watch him struggle to fight >through the layers of compulsions and rituals that have accumulated >over so many years.  He has been accepted at a university for fall/2000 >and while I was talking this morning to the university psychiatrist, >she suggested that I try to find some support online.  I’m not sure if >this is where I should be looking or if this would be better suited to >my son.  You are all very interesting and I have already picked up some >info from you and I thank you. >* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * >The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

  Response:

  Welcome to the board Cindy. I am 30 and have had OCD since I was 10. I was not diagnosed until years later. My family thought the same thing…that I was just bizarre. Back than OCD was not known as widely as it is now…plus my parents were too much of a bad marriage to care or noticed. I have been on a real high dose of Prozac for my OCD (100mgs) Prozac is normally given in high doses for OCD suffers compared to those who are just depressed (although I suffered form depression as well)Anxiety too, which normally goes hand in hand with OCD. Prozac stopped working after a year so I stopped taking it. I hope it continues to work for your son. It would be great if both of you posted on here. Does not matter if you suffer from OCD or not. Welcome to the newsgroup!! Best Wishes for you and your son, Aimee Cindy <tb3NOtbS…@voyager.net.invalid> wrote in message

  news:109ec386.17d341bd@usw-ex0106-048.remarq.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> My 18 yr old son has OCD.  He has known for years, I have known since > Christmas. I just thought he was a little quirky.  He was hospitalized > briefly and is taking Prozac. He is in therapy once a week.  He gets > discouraged and so do I.  It is painful to watch him struggle to fight > through the layers of compulsions and rituals that have accumulated > over so many years.  He has been accepted at a university for fall/2000 > and while I was talking this morning to the university psychiatrist, > she suggested that I try to find some support online.  I’m not sure if > this is where I should be looking or if this would be better suited to > my son.  You are all very interesting and I have already picked up some > info from you and I thank you. > * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * > The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

  Response:

  My 18 yr old son has OCD.  He has known for years, I have known since Christmas. I just thought he was a little quirky.  He was hospitalized briefly and is taking Prozac. He is in therapy once a week.  He gets discouraged and so do I.  It is painful to watch him struggle to fight through the layers of compulsions and rituals that have accumulated over so many years.  He has been accepted at a university for fall/2000 and while I was talking this morning to the university psychiatrist, she suggested that I try to find some support online.  I’m not sure if this is where I should be looking or if this would be better suited to my son.  You are all very interesting and I have already picked up some info from you and I thank you. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

  Response:

  No comments Alcohol Abuse Recovery
  
  

• One down…

  Question:

  Anyway, just wanted to say thanks to those of you who encouraged me to get help with my alcohol abuse.  I’ve got a rather long way to go, but I feel good about taking the first step. jb

  You should be very proud for taking this big step. I wish you all the luck in your recovery. Ray

  Response:

  - Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just wanted to let y’all know that I just completed my first alcohol rehab meeting tonight. Congrats JB! What a huge step that must have been.  I know it’s easier to talk about *maybe* seeking help, but you really did it and deserve accolades for your actions. Anyway, just wanted to say thanks to those of you who encouraged me to get help with my alcohol abuse.  I’ve got a rather long way to go, but I feel good about taking the first step. I hope *we* truly had something to do with providing  the push you needed. The fact is JB, you still did it on your own. A+ for effort and follow through! Kathi please keep us posted on your progress – okay?!

  Good going!  As someone who has been there I can tell you, it can be hard at times but you already did the toughest part. And the rewards in time will be immeasurable..with 32 months behind me now all I can say is I wish I had been able to take that first step sooner! Much Luck to You! May

  Response:

  when you wake up without the hangover, it must do wonders for your anxiety level. this is the case for me yet i continue to drink too much anyway. beer does wonders for my anxiety while i’m awake. its such a vicious cycle.

  Response:

  I just wanted to let y’all know that I just completed my first alcohol rehab meeting tonight.

  Hi JB… I am so glad to see this post!  Alcohol can really mess up lives and its hard to admit their is a problem, at least thats how it was for me.  I was lucky to be able to walk away without too much damage and I really have zero desire to drink anymore.  One beer always ended up as 3 or 4 for me, so I quit altogether.   Good luck to you on this! Peace….. Dan

  Response:

  I just wanted to let y’all know that I just completed my first alcohol rehab

  meeting tonight. Congrats JB! What a huge step that must have been.  I know it’s easier to talk about *maybe* seeking help, but you really did it and deserve accolades for your actions. Anyway, just wanted to say thanks to those of you who encouraged me to get

  help with my alcohol abuse.  I’ve got a rather long way to go, but I feel good about taking the first step. I hope *we* truly had something to do with providing  the push you needed. The fact is JB, you still did it on your own. A+ for effort and follow through! Kathi please keep us posted on your progress – okay?!

  Response:

  Anyway, just wanted to say thanks to those of you who encouraged me to get help with my alcohol abuse.  I’ve got a rather long way to go, but I feel good about taking the first step. jb

  Hi jb, Great news!!!!  You wrote that post two weeks ago, and you are already taken control of this problem. I wish you continued success!!!! Jackie The tiniest dewdrop hanging from a blade of grass in the morning is big enough to relect the sunshine  and the blue of the sky.

  Response:

  Hi, everyone. I just wanted to let y’all know that I just completed my first alcohol rehab meeting tonight.  Three hours long- and these meet 3 times a week- plus they give you other stuff to do and AA meetings to attend.  But I feel good about it, and I had gone in expecting to hate it and to just have to endure it. Anyway, just wanted to say thanks to those of you who encouraged me to get help with my alcohol abuse.  I’ve got a rather long way to go, but I feel good about taking the first step. jb p.s.- I DO sound like Elvis, btw…

  Response:

  jd writes:

  <<  just wanted to let y’all know that I just completed my first alcohol rehab meeting tonight.    Hi jd!!! GOOD FOR YOU!!!! Way to go! I went thru all that a long time ago (i.e. sobering up), and I will never forget how difficult it was in the beginning. I hope you’re feeling SUPER proud of yourself, because this takes humility and GUTS!!! <<  I’ve got a rather long way to go, but I feel good about taking the first step. jb   jb, I’d give you a high five & a bear hug right now, if I could. Keep up the GREAT work, and please feel free to e-mail me anytime! You GO!!! Congrats & best wishes, Char*)

  Response:

  No comments Alcohol Abuse Recovery
  
  

• Mixing Meds and alcohol has finally got me

  Question:

  I have gone in and out of these phases of mixing my meds and alcohol… it has finally resulted in my getting a DUI on top of a felony of aggravated assault with a motor vehicle. I have gambled with this combo for years… causing me minor scrapes with the law… but this time… I’m going down… I just wish that I could die. It doesn’t seem like that I can forgive myself for what I have done and for what I am putting my family through. coz

  Dear coz, Okay… you hit bottom. Turn it around…the only way is up. You may think I’m FOS but I believe this is an opportunity for you to turn it around. One day at a time! That’s all you have to deal with. Today…not yesterday…not tomorrow. In time your family will forgive you. We here at ASDM understand… I am a recovering drunk so I really empathize with you. You will be in my prayers. Please go to the nearest AA meeting today. Tell them what has happened…..Believe me there is absolutely nothing that can shock us. No berating yourself, okay? God Bless, —– … Something Deep!

  Response:

  I have gone in and out of these phases of mixing my meds and alcohol… it has finally resulted in my getting a DUI on top of a felony of aggravated assault with a motor vehicle. I have gambled with this combo for years… causing me minor scrapes with the law… but this time… I’m going down… I just wish that I could die. It doesn’t seem like that I can forgive myself for what I have done and for what I am putting my family through. coz

  I am glad that you are deciding to do things differently and self-forgiveness as well as the forgiveness of others will come with changing your ways and some time.  We are here to support you. See my above post under Drug Addiction and Alcohol Abuse thread for some info on getting help. I am also in recovery from alcohol and drug abuse although I never mixed them with meds except for 1 month.  Mainly because for so long I was in denial and refused to take meds.  Then I stopped taking meds and started drinking and using.  I had to be so hellishly manic and depressed at the same time for so long that I couldn’t function before I would go back on meds.  And now I am clean and sober 6 months as of 12/22. Take care, Aurora

  Response:

  Dear Coz, Things seem very bad, I know.  Just take it one day at a time, dont worry about the days ahead that you can do nothing about.  I hope your family will be forgiving and supportive, but there is nothing that guarantees that, I know.  Just be good to yourself and take care of yourself as though you would take care of someone you really love. I’m so sorry… BIG BIG HUGAMUNGOUS HUGS Anna – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have gone in and out of these phases of mixing my meds and alcohol… it has finally resulted in my getting a DUI on top of a felony of aggravated assault with a motor vehicle. I have gambled with this combo for years… causing me minor scrapes with the law… but this time… I’m going down… I just wish that I could die. It doesn’t seem like that I can forgive myself for what I have done and for what I am putting my family through. coz

  Response:

  I have gone in and out of these phases of mixing my meds and alcohol… it has finally resulted in my getting a DUI on top of a felony of aggravated assault with a motor vehicle. I have gambled with this combo for years… causing me minor scrapes with the law… but this time… I’m going down… I just wish that I could die. It doesn’t seem like that I can forgive myself for what I have done and for what I am putting my family through. coz

  Response:

  You’ll never know how emotional your message has gotten me.  If noone else forgives you, I forgive you.  The first step is realizing what you have done. You can only move forward now and fix the present so that the future will be easier to handle.  I got to believe  that you are going to be o.k and that you can pull through this.  If not who is to say that there  is hope for me.

  Response:

  No comments Alcohol Abuse Recovery
  
  

• HELP IN OHIO!!!!!

  Question:

  Dear Dragon Lady. You asked me a question – you asked for me to speak to you. You invited me – so there is no boundary to cross or violate. I answered your question to the best of my ability. You have a problem with taking what you want and leaving the rest in said answer – ok – you have a problem with that. I don’t have any problem with what I wrote. If I ever ask you a question – you can write what you will – and I will deal with that when ever that comes up – which is probably never as I see no reason to elicit your recovery help with any issues I have.   Unless or until I get another death threat from some Christian Fundamental Republician Nazi getting it on with the Speartip of God. And in answer to your question below – which can not be a boundary violation, as again – you are asking for it. Nope I don’t wonder about people at all – they are far to easy to understand, and what is going on with them and how they respond or not is their stuff – not mine; and I have the wisdom to know the difference. God/Buddha/Tao is wonderful to me though and I do wonder about that. sumbuddie 2 luv – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Alan, I don’t want to control your speech.  I *want* you to stop crossing my boundaries.  Since you seem to be unable to do that, this conversation is at an end.  I won’t be reading your posts (no, I’m not talking about a kill-file, I just simply won’t read them) so don’t bother to answer this. Let me leave you with one question to think about though. Ever wonder why so few people respond to you more than once or twice? Dragon

  Response:

  You dont want my answers  -  you no ask questions sweetie. If I want an answer from you – I will ask – and then you will say what you will say. You want to control my speech – fine – control all you want. How does it feel to get your way ??? And are you …… you know getting your way ??? On my side of the relationship – I would have to say no. But this is from my model of the universe and how I see things. You perhaps will see things differently based on your experience. Good luck in waking up. sumbuddie 2 luv – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You asked me a question Dragon Lady – this is your response from me – you can’t handle it – then don’t ask for it.  This is part of your dysfunctional dynamics in working a Don’t Talk rule and your control issues – or so I respectfully propose. It was and still is unnecessary to include an analysis of *my* recovery in you answer to a simple question. These so called faults – that is your own toxic shame and toxic guilt speaking and you are listening to – I am only relating my model of the universe per your request. I did not ask for your model of the universe.  I realize your answer was long, and needed to be, but it did *not* need to include comments about *my* recovery.  This is what you don’t seem to understand, and I’m not sure how to get it across to you.  You’re not telling me *anything* when you start talking about my recovery and growth.  What happens is that you alienate me, anger me, and I stop listening.  And it really pisses me off when you start with the shame and guilt crap.  Whatever you may think, I am *not* ashamed of who I am, nor am I ashamed of my past.  It’s just that.  Past.  What these kinds of comments feel like is someone else telling me how I feel.  Stop it.  This is a boundary issue, Alan.  It has nothing to do with how far along either of us is in recovery.  If we are going to continue *any* kind of conversations, I do not want to see any more comments like these.  It is not amusing. It’s insulting and demeaning.  NOBODY gets to tell me how I feel. The rest of your post was excellent, but I will not listen to this crap. Either quit or we drop this entirely. Dragon

  Response:

  Alan, I don’t want to control your speech.  I *want* you to stop crossing my boundaries.  Since you seem to be unable to do that, this conversation is at an end.  I won’t be reading your posts (no, I’m not talking about a kill-file, I just simply won’t read them) so don’t bother to answer this. Let me leave you with one question to think about though. Ever wonder why so few people respond to you more than once or twice? Dragon – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -You dont want my answers  -  you no ask questions sweetie. If I want an answer from you – I will ask – and then you will say what you will say. You want to control my speech – fine – control all you want. How does it feel to get your way ??? And are you …… you know getting your way ??? On my side of the relationship – I would have to say no. But this is from my model of the universe and how I see things. You perhaps will see things differently based on your experience. Good luck in waking up. sumbuddie 2 luv You asked me a question Dragon Lady – this is your response from me – you can’t handle it – then don’t ask for it.  This is part of your dysfunctional dynamics in working a Don’t Talk rule and your control issues – or so I respectfully propose. It was and still is unnecessary to include an analysis of *my* recovery in you answer to a simple question. These so called faults – that is your own toxic shame and toxic guilt speaking and you are listening to – I am only relating my model of the universe per your request. I did not ask for your model of the universe.  I realize your answer was long, and needed to be, but it did *not* need to include comments about *my* recovery.  This is what you don’t seem to understand, and I’m not sure how to get it across to you.  You’re not telling me *anything* when you start talking about my recovery and growth.  What happens is that you alienate me, anger me, and I stop listening.  And it really pisses me off when you start with the shame and guilt crap.  Whatever you may think, I am *not* ashamed of who I am, nor am I ashamed of my past.  It’s just that.  Past.  What these kinds of comments feel like is someone else telling me how I feel.  Stop it.  This is a boundary issue, Alan.  It has nothing to do with how far along either of us is in recovery.  If we are going to continue *any* kind of conversations, I do not want to see any more comments like these.  It is not amusing. It’s insulting and demeaning.  NOBODY gets to tell me how I feel. The rest of your post was excellent, but I will not listen to this crap. Either quit or we drop this entirely. Dragon

  Response:

  I need to talk to someone, I feel on the verge of trying to kill myself again, i am trying to wait before i hurt myself, but i just feel so bad and alone!

  Response:

  This is the place to talk Brina – as well as your local suicide hot line. The best way to deal with this stuff immediately is traditional accupuncture and integrative body psychotherapy – don’t do any biofeedback for at least a year after you start this other treatment programs. 12 stepping in ACA/ACOA is real good also – and don’t cost anything. And you are not alone – there are many people here where you will read your life story in their story – we have been hurt badly just like you – and guess what. We are survivors – and you are a survivor.  There is a lot of experience, strength and hope here in this oasis of sanity in a fucked up world. You are really, really ok – it is the world you live in that has problems.  And in time you will sort that out. Keep coming back – it works if you work it. sumbuddie 2 luv – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I need to talk to someone, I feel on the verge of trying to kill myself again, i am trying to wait before i hurt myself, but i just feel so bad and alone!

  Response:

  : I need to talk to someone, I feel on the verge of trying to kill myself : again, i am trying to wait before i hurt myself, but i just feel so bad and : alone! hiya brina. silverleaf here. first off, simple stuff. is there anyone who will hide sharps for you? is there a safe person you can have as company till the urge fades a little? have you taken a deep breath? is there something you can do to express those feelings without hurting yourself? (ripping things into pieces or shouting or painting angry colors are what help me…) second, more complicated stuff. i was talking with a doctor who was assessing me, and we were talking about my suicide attempts. and he said that he thinks survivors know that there has to be *some* ending, some kind of death, but that many of us don’t know it’s a symbolic death, not physical death. i don’t know if this makes sense to you, but to me it was like a flash of inspiration. things can *end*, your life as it is can *end* but you don’t need to die for that to happen. what you’re doing now, the work you’re doing to recover is very much a part of drawing that pain to a close. you don’t have to die, brina. you can live, and things can change. silverleaf — Hardware: the parts of a computer that may be KICKED.

  Response:

  survivors know that there has to be *some* ending, some kind of death, but that many of us don’t know it’s a symbolic death, not physical death.

  Silverleaf: This makes a lot of sense to *me*.  I’ve often felt that to be able to go on with my life, I need to shed who I am now, ie, changing my appearance, changing my name…etc…  I still might do both, but I wanted to say that I know what you mean. -Cat Self-forgiveness is a wonderful thing.  I’m beginning to realize that I will, in fact, survive the surviving.  

  Response:

  12 stepping in ACA/ACOA is real good also – and don’t cost anything.

  Alan, I’m curious.  Why do you keep recommending that everyone go to ACA/ACOA when they haven’t even so much as mentioned alcohol in connection to their problems? Dragon

  Response:

  Dear Dragon Lady: It is wonderful to you see you open your mind on this one day (tomorrow you can close it again – it’s part of recovery – two steps foward – one step back – hey; it’s progress) and ask me a question instead of telling me your model of the universe. Well in addressing your question from my experience. ACA/ACOA can better be understood as people who are ADULTS now, but in their CHILDHOODs they had parent objects who were ABUSERS. Not that they were exlusively alcoholic, they can abuse their family members and and abuse themselves with other drugs that have nothing to do with alcohol abuse. What ACA/ACOA does for people in their recovery is to deal with the underlying emotional wounds that comes from this ABUSE (i am not yelling at you – just making emphasis so you can better understand the recovery phonomena). And how ACA/ACOA does this – is in a structured healthy "family" situation so that the person in recovery can speak in a "family" situation that they were not able to do in their dysfunctional childhood.   ( I am convinced there is a social psychology part of the brain that is compromised and must be fixed in this manner of talking in a group of at least three healthy people {mother/father/child history}, but the larger the better – so that they are heard and can break the dysfunctional DON’T RULES ) The core disease issue in recovery is "relationships". And these relationships are all messed up in childhood abuse by abusers who did not have good relationship skills and passed the disease down the generation, the relationship with self, other people and their higher power. Heal that relationship stuff up – you have healed up the dysfunctional psychology and get one’s recovery.  ACA/ACOA does this very well – but of course one has to find the right meeting place for them, that fits for them. In the past Dragon Lady – your approach to me was in a manner that made for a bad relationship – just from the power of your own words in how you speak yourself into the future. Since you have changed your words and the power behind them – your relationship with me has changed and so has your future. You will understand this better in time as you continue on with your recovery in healing your broken heart.  In fact if you ever go attend any ACA/ACOA meetings for any significant time – which I suspect you never have – you will get a lot out of it. sumbuddie 2 luv PS for me to speak to you – after all the perpatrative shit you have laid on me with out making amends really pushes my own recovery issues – which is pretty neat for me.  I dont like getting shitted upon by anybody, but you are seeking to learn, but know that mindtalk only goes so far – you must go into the body and heal the broken heart – then you will understand this stuff.  IBP is the best modality I have found for this in my 23 years of recovery and my own professional work in clinical psychology. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 12 stepping in ACA/ACOA is real good also – and don’t cost anything. Alan, I’m curious.  Why do you keep recommending that everyone go to ACA/ACOA when they haven’t even so much as mentioned alcohol in connection to their problems? Dragon

  Response:

  Cat… Wow.  Your post really was a relevation for me.  The week after my mother’s death I went and had my hair cut.  You may recall I was kind of emotional after all of that.  Anyway, it has been difficult to me to know who and what I am now.  My mother due to our relationship defined who I was, my place and role in the family.  Now I don’t know what I am.  I feel empty but I think that is normal.  I did love her despite our history.  But to see the haircut (totally new and different look for me) and this kind of sad maturity as a new identity…as a grown woman…not a woman-child, that is not something I saw or sensed.  Thank you soo very much for your words. They were exactly what I needed to see and hear and ponder.  (I am starting to read and work with two books now.  Victim No More and The Courage To Heal.  In my case, I believe they are intertwined.)    In appreciation, E – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -This makes a lot of sense to *me*.  I’ve often felt that to be able to go on with my life, I need to shed who I am now, ie, changing my appearance, changing my name…etc…  I still might do both, but I wanted to say that I know what you mean.

  Response:

  You asked me a question Dragon Lady – this is your response from me – you can’t handle it – then don’t ask for it.  This is part of your dysfunctional dynamics in working a Don’t Talk rule and your control issues – or so I respectfully propose.

  It was and still is unnecessary to include an analysis of *my* recovery in you answer to a simple question. These so called faults – that is your own toxic shame and toxic guilt speaking and you are listening to – I am only relating my model of the universe per your request.

  I did not ask for your model of the universe.  I realize your answer was long, and needed to be, but it did *not* need to include comments about *my* recovery.  This is what you don’t seem to understand, and I’m not sure how to get it across to you.  You’re not telling me *anything* when you start talking about my recovery and growth.  What happens is that you alienate me, anger me, and I stop listening.  And it really pisses me off when you start with the shame and guilt crap.  Whatever you may think, I am *not* ashamed of who I am, nor am I ashamed of my past.  It’s just that.  Past.  What these kinds of comments feel like is someone else telling me how I feel.  Stop it.  This is a boundary issue, Alan.  It has nothing to do with how far along either of us is in recovery.  If we are going to continue *any* kind of conversations, I do not want to see any more comments like these.  It is not amusing. It’s insulting and demeaning.  NOBODY gets to tell me how I feel. The rest of your post was excellent, but I will not listen to this crap. Either quit or we drop this entirely. Dragon

  Response:

  As far as I can see, the only "toxic" thing around here, Alan, is *you*. For such an accomplished 12-stepper as you, you certainly spend a lot of time taking everyone’s inventory. love, yer pal Pinky – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You asked me a question Dragon Lady – this is your response from me – you can’t handle it – then don’t ask for it.  This is part of your dysfunctional dynamics in working a Don’t Talk rule and your control issues – or so I respectfully propose. These so called faults – that is your own toxic shame and toxic guilt speaking and you are listening to – I am only relating my model of the universe per your request.   And I know about the power of the word – I have no problems with you acting out your disease; that’s your shit, not mine; and I have the wisdom to know the difference – it is part of getting well – making mistakes, losing a game – how else is one to win or find the path – but by stubbing toes or sticking feet in mouth instead of down the yellow brick road. Besides I have no desire to control your shit – just makes for blowing out hemmorids. So, your apology is accepted though you used the word sorry.  Everything is okey doaky over here. Also you are the one who changed your words and how you speak it – not me – that is you determining your future – not me.  I hope you can notice that – and the er – don’t project to far – that is you doing it.  Point a finger there are three pointing back. When you are telling me your model of the universe unsoliceted – you are attempting to be my higher power – and I think I am very good at not doing that to people – their higher power is inside of them.  Just like mine is inside of me.  Or yours is inside of you – as you speak so shall you become. Now – look who you have become. I like it. It’s wonderful to watch you grow. If you want to know what mindtalk is or IBP is – just ask. I have made repeated posting to other people on this subject already in this NG in the recent past – which you may have missed. sumbuddie 2 luv Please don’t do that.  *That* is the kind of thing that seta *me* off.  I’m not asking for comments on my recovery.  I’m asking why you keep doing something that I couldn’t understand.  I neither want not need anyone else to point out any faults to me.  I know what my faults are, and it just makes me mad.  I got that kind of thing from my brother the entire time I was growing up, and I think it’s why I have so much trouble seeing behind your words to the message you’re trying to get across. Alan, my words have no power that you do not give them.  Never-the-less, I am sorry if I have hurt you.  That was not my intent. Since you have changed your words and the power behind them – your relationship with me has changed and so has your future. Er…don’t project too far.  I’m not ready to deal with that.  I determine my own future. I’m also not clear on exactly what you mean by mindtalk, and I have no idea what IBP is.

  Response:

  You asked me a question Dragon Lady – this is your response from me – you can’t handle it – then don’t ask for it.  This is part of your dysfunctional dynamics in working a Don’t Talk rule and your control issues – or so I respectfully propose. These so called faults – that is your own toxic shame and toxic guilt speaking and you are listening to – I am only relating my model of the universe per your request.   And I know about the power of the word – I have no problems with you acting out your disease; that’s your shit, not mine; and I have the wisdom to know the difference – it is part of getting well – making mistakes, losing a game – how else is one to win or find the path – but by stubbing toes or sticking feet in mouth instead of down the yellow brick road. Besides I have no desire to control your shit – just makes for blowing out hemmorids. So, your apology is accepted though you used the word sorry.  Everything is okey doaky over here. Also you are the one who changed your words and how you speak it – not me – that is you determining your future – not me.  I hope you can notice that – and the er – don’t project to far – that is you doing it.  Point a finger there are three pointing back. When you are telling me your model of the universe unsoliceted – you are attempting to be my higher power – and I think I am very good at not doing that to people – their higher power is inside of them.  Just like mine is inside of me.  Or yours is inside of you – as you speak so shall you become. Now – look who you have become. I like it. It’s wonderful to watch you grow. If you want to know what mindtalk is or IBP is – just ask. I have made repeated posting to other people on this subject already in this NG in the recent past – which you may have missed. sumbuddie 2 luv – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Please don’t do that.  *That* is the kind of thing that seta *me* off.  I’m not asking for comments on my recovery.  I’m asking why you keep doing something that I couldn’t understand.  I neither want not need anyone else to point out any faults to me.  I know what my faults are, and it just makes me mad.  I got that kind of thing from my brother the entire time I was growing up, and I think it’s why I have so much trouble seeing behind your words to the message you’re trying to get across. Alan, my words have no power that you do not give them.  Never-the-less, I am sorry if I have hurt you.  That was not my intent. Since you have changed your words and the power behind them – your relationship with me has changed and so has your future. Er…don’t project too far.  I’m not ready to deal with that.  I determine my own future. I’m also not clear on exactly what you mean by mindtalk, and I have no idea what IBP is.

  Response:

  Dear Dragon Lady: It is wonderful to you see you open your mind on this one day (tomorrow you can close it again – it’s part of recovery – two steps foward – one step back – hey; it’s progress) and ask me a question instead of telling me your model of the universe.

  Please don’t do that.  *That* is the kind of thing that seta *me* off.  I’m not asking for comments on my recovery.  I’m asking why you keep doing something that I couldn’t understand.  I neither want not need anyone else to point out any faults to me.  I know what my faults are, and it just makes me mad.  I got that kind of thing from my brother the entire time I was growing up, and I think it’s why I have so much trouble seeing behind your words to the message you’re trying to get across. Well in addressing your question from my experience. ACA/ACOA can better be understood as people who are ADULTS now, but in their CHILDHOODs they had parent objects who were ABUSERS. Not that they were exlusively alcoholic, they can abuse their family members and and abuse themselves with other drugs that have nothing to do with alcohol abuse.

  OK, I understand that.  But I thought they were limited to adult children of alcoholics.  Do you belong to one of these groups? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -What ACA/ACOA does for people in their recovery is to deal with the underlying emotional wounds that comes from this ABUSE (i am not yelling at you – just making emphasis so you can better understand the recovery phonomena). And how ACA/ACOA does this – is in a structured healthy "family" situation so that the person in recovery can speak in a "family" situation that they were not able to do in their dysfunctional childhood. ( I am convinced there is a social psychology part of the brain that is compromised and must be fixed in this manner of talking in a group of at least three healthy people {mother/father/child history}, but the larger the better – so that they are heard and can break the dysfunctional DON’T RULES ) The core disease issue in recovery is "relationships". And these relationships are all messed up in childhood abuse by abusers who did not have good relationship skills and passed the disease down the generation, the relationship with self, other people and their higher power. Heal that relationship stuff up – you have healed up the dysfunctional psychology and get one’s recovery.  ACA/ACOA does this very well – but of course one has to find the right meeting place for them, that fits for them.

  Now I find this very interesting.  In some ways, it parrallells my own experience in Al-Anon, although to focus there tends to be  on the relationship with the alcoholic spouse, and dealing with children in recovery. In the past Dragon Lady – your approach to me was in a manner that made for a bad relationship – just from the power of your own words in how you speak yourself into the future.

  Alan, my words have no power that you do not give them.  Never-the-less, I am sorry if I have hurt you.  That was not my intent. Since you have changed your words and the power behind them – your relationship with me has changed and so has your future.

  Er…don’t project too far.  I’m not ready to deal with that.  I determine my own future. You will understand this better in time as you continue on with your recovery in healing your broken heart.  In fact if you ever go attend any ACA/ACOA meetings for any significant time – which I suspect you never have – you will get a lot out of it.

  You’re doing it again.  Whose inventory are you taking?  I know where I am in recovery, and I heartily dislike people telling me where I’m at. Have you ever seen to story of my father "saving my marriage"?  It’s that type of reaction.  When people start telling me what I think, what I "should" do, I tend to get angry.  I’ve been fighting controlers who do that all my life.  Even with the best of intentions, that’s what this feels like. sumbuddie 2 luv PS for me to speak to you – after all the perpatrative shit you have laid on me with out making amends really pushes my own recovery issues – which is pretty neat for me.  I dont like getting shitted upon by anybody, but you are seeking to learn, but know that mindtalk only goes so far – you must go into the body and heal the broken heart – then you will understand this stuff.  IBP is the best modality I have found for this in my 23 years of recovery and my own professional work in clinical psychology.

  You may not understand this, but I am in the very same situation.  It’s been driving me crazy wondering why you kept recommending ACA/ACOA to people, which is the only reason why I initiated this conversation. I’m also not clear on exactly what you mean by mindtalk, and I have no idea what IBP is. Dragon P.S.  *smile*  I thank you for the wishes, but my "broken heart" is already well on it’s way to healing.  I’m just realizing, though, that I’m still dealing with some anger issues, apparently, which I had thought I was done with.

  Response:

  No comments Alcohol Abuse Recovery
  
  

• recovery

  Question:

  hello brave mouse,       welcome.       and now you too are a part of us.. if you choose to stay..       and your post, like other posts, brings strength and courage to those still silent.. and to those not-so silent.               take care,                   –Susan

  Response:

  hullo mouse. one thing i wanted to say is that you did sign your real name. your real net name. it counts, and you’re allowed to feel scared. the other is that you have the same courage and brightness of spirit that you admire here. i know how hard it is to post, it’s still hard for me sometimes. welcome! silverleaf — — Do not run. We are your friends. *bzort*

  Response:

  mouse, WELCOME!  look…i dunno…many things are difficult…being here has given me hope.  i mean these virtual strangers became real friends…what i like best is the support and reassurance….that whatever i am *feeling* is *okay*.  i am a *good* person.  and more importantly i can *love*. this place gives me a foundation.  like however low i feel i still have this foundation to build me back up to a big old building of love.  there are many bad days where i wonder is this place worth it?  and the answer is always a big fat YES!!! it sometimes gets exhausting writing about stuff…butpeople understand me here…more than i thought i could ever understand myself. and something i learned here…is it doesn’t really matter who was hurt more or worse…but that fact that we were all hurt. i appreciate you trusting us enough to introduce yourself.  you know, i have a lot of faith in this group, that collectively we can do anything and help near everybody…if given the chance…we do not dig, probe or judge…we listen.  we care…we understand…we support…we love. i hope you decide to stay because i know first hand what a positive thing in my life this group is…which is so comforting a world filled with negative stuff. please stay. i care. *hug* Debbie Stone )             all i can do is hold on to what i have * Carleton U *       *    * why did it change?, i liked it how it was                 *             i’m without you, the world spins without me   *                        *     *       *   i wish you were here with me *

  Response:

  Hi.  I’ve been lurking and reading for quite some time and feel such good feelings toward many of you.  You are an amzing group of people.  And this is such a lonely isolating place to be–recovery, I mean.  I visualize myself being confident and content and maybe even joyful someday.  It’s so hard to undo and relearn such core beliefs about myself, other people and the even the course of destiny (fate, god..whatever)  The question that was asked "what is love?" was so fascinating to think about.  I really think that even though I have learned some maladaptive ways of relating to life, It’s possible, somehow, to relearn. Depression is such an enemy, though.  And ignorance.  I don’t know how to trust.  I don’t know what to replace self hatred with.  What does confidence feel like?  Would I recognize goodness and genuine love if I found it?   It’s so hard not to compare my past with so many of yours that were so much worse.  Your stories and your courage have touched me very deeply.  I would love to feel a part of something like the friendship and support I see here, but it’s very frightening just to write this much–and not even sign my real name. mouse

  Response:

  Hi Phil … there is lots of experience – strength and hope here …. some trolls who just want to make recovery difficult for you since you are not on your way to finding Jesus for 65 cents a day … seems you are having a hard time finding a fellowship meeting and some recovery buddies like at an ACA meeting. hang out dude – see if there is something here for you or not. lots of old timers here – lots of insight and sight on to the problem as well as the solution. sumbuddie said dis Well I just wanted to see what this newgroup was like….and I’m still not totally sure….just how does this newsgroup deal with the issue of recovery…..I mean I realize it’s an individual journey, but I’ve been floating around looking at different place to dicuss abuse and well, personally I’m not sure if the net is the place.  However given the lack of services I feel are nessesary for support, I feel sort of in a dilema.

   —–  Posted via NewsOne.Net: Free (anonymous) Usenet News via the Web  —–   http://newsone.net/ — Free reading and anonymous posting to 60,000+ groups    NewsOne.Net prohibits users from posting spam.  If this or other posts

  Response:

  Well I’ve been hanging out here for a couple of days I guess like the responses so far as well I’ve be able to offer some advice as well…..although I’m sure there’s always enough advice in this world good or bad…. Phil

  – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Phil … there is lots of experience – strength and hope here …. some trolls who just want to make recovery difficult for you since you are not on your way to finding Jesus for 65 cents a day … seems you are having a hard time finding a fellowship meeting and some recovery buddies like at an ACA meeting. hang out dude – see if there is something here for you or not. lots of old timers here – lots of insight and sight on to the problem as well as the solution. sumbuddie said dis

  Response:

  Hi Phil, I personally have found this NG a good place to vent and get some advice. I never realized just how many people can relate or empathize. we get our occasional run of trolls such as Peter Percival and some guy by the name of Radio Montana-something or other….. they’re usually short lived as long as is ignored or laughed at. I’ve been posting here for probably at this point a few months. Generally there are really nice people here and then there’s a handful that I personally could do without…. and it’s that group of "people that ____ can personally do without" who’s different for everybody. I’m sure that if you were to talk about your road to recovery and the events that has forced you to become a "survivor of abuse" you’ll find that a lot of people can offer some good words of wisdom, support or even just lending a "shoulder" of sorts and an "ear" to vent to. I do hope you can stay and find this NG helpful and a useful tool for recovery and resources. =) Kathryn – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well I just wanted to see what this newgroup was like….and I’m still not totally sure….just how does this newsgroup deal with the issue of recovery…..I mean I realize it’s an individual journey, but I’ve been floating around looking at different place to dicuss abuse and well, personally I’m not sure if the net is the place.  However given the lack of services I feel are nessesary for support, I feel sort of in a dilema.

  Response:

  – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Phil, I personally have found this NG a good place to vent and get some advice. I never realized just how many people can relate or empathize. we get our occasional run of trolls such as Peter Percival and some guy by the name of Radio Montana-something or other….. they’re usually short lived as long as is ignored or laughed at. I’ve been posting here for probably at this point a few months. Generally there are really nice people here and then there’s a handful that I personally could do without…. and it’s that group of "people that ____ can personally do without" who’s different for everybody. I’m sure that if you were to talk about your road to recovery and the events that has forced you to become a "survivor of abuse" you’ll find that a lot of people can offer some good words of wisdom, support or even just lending a "shoulder" of sorts and an "ear" to vent to. I do hope you can stay and find this NG helpful and a useful tool for recovery and resources. =) Kathryn

  well, it’s nice to get a response….I was begining to wonder to for awhile The road to recovery? Well it’s been a long one It started back about 4 years ago when I finally got not only my high school dimploma but a college degree in the business field. I was working in the security field when my past came back to haunt me I was living with people who at the time had decided that I wasn’t allowed to touch anyway that was theirs in the house, including the sofas….sigh I was referred to the psychiatric dept program in my area where I was in Behavoral Therapy, Intro groups and one on one with an occupational therpist for about two years.  I then went to The Canadian Mental Health Association and applied for a psychrist after leaving the programs because they were short term care and I was a year over my stay already. There I also enrolled in the Empowerment program which was again non-specific treatment in a group setting. I have since left that as well because they give you tons of ideas many of which have helped somewhat but, it seems with the issue of abuse they don’t really address the subject. My abuse itself dates back to my father figure who abused me physcally & Mentally to the classmates at the 20+ schools I went to all in the same city. To the family that watched and did nothing as my older brother was shattered at 15 and institutionalized for a decade. It’s taken me 27 years and counting to realize all the abuse I’ve endured over the years, I’m briefing things a lot as my abuse and problems over time has lead me to drug use, alcohol abuse, gang lifestyles, homelessness at times and of course more abuse. Your thoughts? Phil

  Response:

  Well I just wanted to see what this newgroup was like….and I’m still not totally sure….just how does this newsgroup deal with the issue of recovery…..I mean I realize it’s an individual journey, but I’ve been floating around looking at different place to dicuss abuse and well, personally I’m not sure if the net is the place.  However given the lack of services I feel are nessesary for support, I feel sort of in a dilema.

  Response:

  well, hi.  can’t really say what will work for you.  there is a lot of friendship around here.  If you will notice there is not any fighting going on right now, but sometimes there is tons of it.  Sometimes there is a lot of support.  sometimes there is a lot of laughter.  all kinda of things here. personally i don’t think that online is the place to get what is needed in recovery.  i think that stuff needs to be gotten in the flesh & blood.  But then I have made some really cool friends thru the online stuff.  And I HAVE gotten support from folks here.  Just think the main stuff has to be something more tangible.  There are probably others here tho that see it differently than i. so what is it you are wanting to find online?  I saw you say "place to discuss abuse".  Is that what you need a place to discuss your abuse? I don’t know if online is always safe.  there are some folks who take note of  vulnerable spots in people & then use those things later or childhood abuse situations & use those later to hurt folks.  Some people are able to brush the cruel ones off & others are not.  I guess how much I discuss online is dependent on what I an handle being thrown back in my face.  Cause there ARE some really great folks who are able to be kind & listen & give good feedback w/out giving advice.  I mean there are some really kewl & Hmm, well that was really back& forth.  Guess i was just saying my experience….as i have heard many say….take what you like & leave the rest. welcome to the ng. polly wog

  – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well I just wanted to see what this newgroup was like….and I’m still not totally sure….just how does this newsgroup deal with the issue of recovery…..I mean I realize it’s an individual journey, but I’ve been floating around looking at different place to dicuss abuse and well, personally I’m not sure if the net is the place.  However given the lack of services I feel are nessesary for support, I feel sort of in a dilema.

  Response:

  http://asarian-host.org/beaumond – fiberarts

  GOOD NEW: Hemp for ppl in pain Only are not crims. Gov, says "all party aggreement" on fast track "law protecting Kids" First. Good things grow in Ontario. Ilove you andy efremov But as he said, a long way to go!!

  Response:

  Hi andy,          I knew you were teasing Hey if I can tease you – you can tease me – it’s only fair!         Never heard of Spider in a Box.  Heard of Jack in a Box (not related to Swords of course though) and once I had a mouse jump out of a box!         Yes we can talk html – what do you need to know?         Good about Canadian’s in pain being able to grow marijuana for it – you’re not in pain are you andy?         – Pamther – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wrote and thought Andy Efremov: Panther is just helping. Spider in a Box. Panther, I did that only once! I Was just teasing you? ok?!!!! Can well talk html. for a bit please? with resprct. andy. happy, with new laws protecting Kids are getting the fast track. More to follow. In ontario ppl in pain can grow pot as of today. Cool,???? Sliver,   title of the "Grandma take me home" song, Nirvana —         A spider in a match box?????         Hummmmmm don’t know andy, why is it the purrfect gift? Just teasin ya andy         – Panther

  – http://asarian-host.org – anon service  & websites http://asarian-host.org/inpsyte – trauma psychology http://asarian-host.org/beaumond – fiberarts

  Response:

  silver wrote; Yes pain. Lots. Doctors dont care about such times here. Dr.y.y. Chen is anti-Survivor. Carefull kids! Money first? But enough about me. The laws protecting Kids and woman go into effect in May they Say. Anyway. Ohh that place where perps live near Kids, well they say it’s gonna be moved. We will see Thank-you for teaching me. NO GREATER GIFT sliver – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi andy,          I knew you were teasing Hey if I can tease you – you can tease me – it’s only fair!         Never heard of Spider in a Box.  Heard of Jack in a Box (not related to Swords of course though) and once I had a mouse jump out of a box!         Yes we can talk html – what do you need to know?         Good about Canadian’s in pain being able to grow marijuana for it – you’re not in pain are you andy?         – Pamther Wrote and thought Andy Efremov: Panther is just helping. Spider in a Box. Panther, I did that only once! I Was just teasing you? ok?!!!! Can well talk html. for a bit please? with resprct. andy. happy, with new laws protecting Kids are getting the fast track. More to follow. In ontario ppl in pain can grow pot as of today. Cool,???? Sliver,   title of the "Grandma take me home" song, Nirvana —         A spider in a match box?????         Hummmmmm don’t know andy, why is it the purrfect gift? Just teasin ya andy         – Panther — http://asarian-host.org – anon service  & websites http://asarian-host.org/inpsyte – trauma psychology http://asarian-host.org/beaumond – fiberarts

  Response:

  Wrote and thought Andy Efremov: Panther is just helping. Spider in a Box. Panther, I did that only once! I Was just teasing you? ok?!!!! Can well talk html. for a bit please? with resprct. andy. happy, with new laws protecting Kids are getting the fast track. More to follow. In ontario ppl in pain can grow pot as of today. Cool,???? Sliver,   title of the "Grandma take me home" song, Nirvana – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – —         A spider in a match box?????         Hummmmmm don’t know andy, why is it the purrfect gift? Just teasin ya andy         – Panther Dear Panther: Well just woke up refreshed, so great. Uhhh it makes no sense to me. But i can write in invisable ink. I’ve got all I need info and tool wise, now i just need time and patients. There is a great movie from the CBC called my American Cousins, I love it. andy The Verve efremov Bittersweet That’s me all the way I love Survivors, even the ones who bite. Andy (who really likes panther) I dont know what you sent me<HTML but thank-you. dislexiea and mthl, fun! a Challenge!!!!! Dont help too much!      <HTML      <HEAD      <TITLE Html</TITLE      </HEAD      <BODY  BACKGROUND COLOR = "#FFFFFF" TEXT = "#000000"      <h3<center      How about this html text</P      <P      How are you doing with it?</P      <P      <P              - Panther (wondering how andy is doing with his web      authoring?)</h3</center</P      </BODY      </HTML       <ul       <LI apples       <l1 oranges       is there a relationship.       What happens, I think it will stay as typed.            any messages there???       The message is peace!andy         <DD     colour, might be 6 diget #      –      http://asarian-host.org – anon service  & websites      http://asarian-host.org/inpsyte – trauma psychology      http://asarian-host.org/beaumond – fiberarts — http://asarian-host.org – anon service  & websites http://asarian-host.org/inpsyte – trauma psychology http://asarian-host.org/beaumond – fiberarts Yea, Panther one day I should give you a gift. Have I told you about the spider in the match-box? The purrrfict gift. html. olbr http://asarian-host.org – anon service  & websites http://asarian-host.org/inpsyte – trauma psychology http://asarian-host.org/beaumond – fiberarts

  Response:

  - Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <not  code the above is purple this is blue. This is<img stop. No color now that is cryptic think ink. compare in contrast. wep pages and ngs use different formats or it is converted. I think a news host converts it. why?      italic in red back to normal this is nuts, <my 50 mission cap<       <000000      <100000      <UL      <LL      <101010      sent in html.      <sent in html      <Banned in Canada      <111000      banned in canada<           <ul           <LI apples           <l1 oranges           is there a relationship.           What happens, I think it will stay as typed.                any messages there???           The message is peace!andy             <DD     colour, might be 6 diget # wrote andy:

  .different browsers, Nevermind. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

  Response:

  Wrote and thought andy: Panther is just helping. Spider in a Box. Panther I did that only once! I Was just teasing you? ok? Like you! Can well talk html. for a bit please? with resprct. andy. happy, with new laws protecting Kids are getting the fast track. More to follow. In ontario ppl in pain can grow pot as of today. Cool,???? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – —         A spider in a match box?????         Hummmmmm don’t know andy, why is it the purrfect gift? Just teasin ya andy         – Panther Dear Panther: Well just woke up refreshed, so great. Uhhh it makes no sense to me. But i can write in invisable ink. I’ve got all I need info and tool wise, now i just need time and patients. There is a great movie from the CBC called my American Cousins, I love it. andy The Verve efremov Bittersweet That’s me all the way I love Survivors, even the ones who bite. Andy (who really likes panther) I dont know what you sent me<HTML but thank-you. dislexiea and mthl, fun! a Challenge!!!!! Dont help too much!      <HTML      <HEAD      <TITLE Html</TITLE      </HEAD      <BODY  BACKGROUND COLOR = "#FFFFFF" TEXT = "#000000"      <h3<center      How about this html text</P      <P      How are you doing with it?</P      <P      <P              - Panther (wondering how andy is doing with his web      authoring?)</h3</center</P      </BODY      </HTML       <ul       <LI apples       <l1 oranges       is there a relationship.       What happens, I think it will stay as typed.            any messages there???       The message is peace!andy         <DD     colour, might be 6 diget #      –      http://asarian-host.org – anon service  & websites      http://asarian-host.org/inpsyte – trauma psychology      http://asarian-host.org/beaumond – fiberarts — http://asarian-host.org – anon service  & websites http://asarian-host.org/inpsyte – trauma psychology http://asarian-host.org/beaumond – fiberarts Yea, Panther one day I should give you a gift. Have I told you about the spider in the match-box? The purrrfict gift. html. olbr http://asarian-host.org – anon service  & websites http://asarian-host.org/inpsyte – trauma psychology http://asarian-host.org/beaumond – fiberarts

  Response:

  –         A spider in a match box?????         Hummmmmm don’t know andy, why is it the purrfect gift? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just teasin ya andy         – Panther Dear Panther: Well just woke up refreshed, so great. Uhhh it makes no sense to me. But i can write in invisable ink. I’ve got all I need info and tool wise, now i just need time and patients. There is a great movie from the CBC called my American Cousins, I love it. andy The Verve efremov Bittersweet That’s me all the way I love Survivors, even the ones who bite. Andy (who really likes panther) I dont know what you sent me<HTML but thank-you. dislexiea and mthl, fun! a Challenge!!!!! Dont help too much!      <HTML      <HEAD      <TITLE Html</TITLE      </HEAD      <BODY  BACKGROUND COLOR = "#FFFFFF" TEXT = "#000000"      <h3<center      How about this html text</P      <P      How are you doing with it?</P      <P      <P              - Panther (wondering how andy is doing with his web      authoring?)</h3</center</P      </BODY      </HTML       <ul       <LI apples       <l1 oranges       is there a relationship.       What happens, I think it will stay as typed.            any messages there???       The message is peace!andy         <DD     colour, might be 6 diget #      –      http://asarian-host.org – anon service  & websites      http://asarian-host.org/inpsyte – trauma psychology      http://asarian-host.org/beaumond – fiberarts — http://asarian-host.org – anon service  & websites http://asarian-host.org/inpsyte – trauma psychology http://asarian-host.org/beaumond – fiberarts Yea, Panther one day I should give you a gift. Have I told you about the spider in the match-box? The purrrfict gift. html. olbr

  http://asarian-host.org – anon service  & websites http://asarian-host.org/inpsyte – trauma psychology http://asarian-host.org/beaumond – fiberarts

  Response:

  - Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just teasin ya andy         – Panther Dear Panther: Well just woke up refreshed, so great. Uhhh it makes no sense to me. But i can write in invisable ink. I’ve got all I need info and tool wise, now i just need time and patients. There is a great movie from the CBC called my American Cousins, I love it. andy The Verve efremov Bittersweet That’s me all the way I love Survivors, even the ones who bite. Andy (who really likes panther) I dont know what you sent me<HTML but thank-you. dislexiea and mthl, fun! a Challenge!!!!! Dont help too much!      <HTML      <HEAD      <TITLE Html</TITLE      </HEAD      <BODY  BACKGROUND COLOR = "#FFFFFF" TEXT = "#000000"      <h3<center      How about this html text</P      <P      How are you doing with it?</P      <P      <P              - Panther (wondering how andy is doing with his web      authoring?)</h3</center</P      </BODY      </HTML       <ul       <LI apples       <l1 oranges       is there a relationship.       What happens, I think it will stay as typed.            any messages there???       The message is peace!andy         <DD     colour, might be 6 diget #      –      http://asarian-host.org – anon service  & websites      http://asarian-host.org/inpsyte – trauma psychology      http://asarian-host.org/beaumond – fiberarts — http://asarian-host.org – anon service  & websites http://asarian-host.org/inpsyte – trauma psychology http://asarian-host.org/beaumond – fiberarts

  Yea, Panther one day I should give you a gift. Have I told you about the spider in the match-box? The purrrfict gift. html. olbr

  Response:

  Just teasin ya andy         – Panther – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dear Panther: Well just woke up refreshed, so great. Uhhh it makes no sense to me. But i can write in invisable ink. I’ve got all I need info and tool wise, now i just need time and patients. There is a great movie from the CBC called my American Cousins, I love it. andy The Verve efremov Bittersweet That’s me all the way I love Survivors, even the ones who bite. Andy (who really likes panther) I dont know what you sent me<HTML but thank-you. dislexiea and mthl, fun! a Challenge!!!!! Dont help too much!      <HTML      <HEAD      <TITLE Html</TITLE      </HEAD      <BODY  BACKGROUND COLOR = "#FFFFFF" TEXT = "#000000"      <h3<center      How about this html text</P      <P      How are you doing with it?</P      <P      <P              - Panther (wondering how andy is doing with his web      authoring?)</h3</center</P      </BODY      </HTML       <ul       <LI apples       <l1 oranges       is there a relationship.       What happens, I think it will stay as typed.            any messages there???       The message is peace!andy         <DD     colour, might be 6 diget #      –      http://asarian-host.org – anon service  & websites      http://asarian-host.org/inpsyte – trauma psychology      http://asarian-host.org/beaumond – fiberarts

  – http://asarian-host.org – anon service  & websites http://asarian-host.org/inpsyte – trauma psychology http://asarian-host.org/beaumond – fiberarts

  Response:

  <HTML <FONT COLOR="#CC33CC"&lt;not&nbsp; code</FONT <BR<FONT COLOR="#3366FF"the above is purple this is blue.</FONT <BR<FONT COLOR="#3366FF"This is&lt;img stop.</FONT <BR<FONT COLOR="#FFFFFF"No color now that is cryptic</FONT <BR<FONT COLOR="#FF6666"think ink.</FONT <BR<FONT COLOR="#FF6666"compare in <FONT SIZE=+2contrast<I.</I</FONT</FONT <BR<I<FONT COLOR="#FF6666"wep pages and ngs use different formats</FONT</I <BR<I<FONT COLOR="#FF6666"or it is converted. I think a news host converts it.</FONT</I <BR<I<FONT COLOR="#FF6666"why?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; italic in red</FONT</I <BR<I<FONT COLOR="#000000"&nbsp;</FONT</I <BR<I<FONT COLOR="#000000"back to normal</FONT</I <BR<FONT COLOR="#000000"<Ithis i</Is nuts,</FONT <BR<FONT COLOR="#000000"&lt;my 50 mission cap&lt;</FONT <BR<FONT COLOR="#3366FF"</FONT&nbsp;<FONT COLOR="#3366FF"</FONT

  <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE&nbsp;&lt;000000 <BR&lt;100000 <BR&lt;UL <BR&lt;LL <P&lt;101010 <BRsent in html. <BR&lt;sent in html <P&lt;Banned in Canada <BR&lt;111000 <BRbanned in canada&lt;

  <BR&nbsp; <P&lt;ul <BR&lt;LI apples <BR&lt;l1 oranges <BRis there a relationship. <BRWhat happens, I think it will stay as typed.

  <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITEany messages there???</BLOCKQUOTE The message is peace!andy <BR&nbsp; <FONT COLOR="#CCCCCC"&lt;DD&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; colour, might be 6 diget #</FONT</BLOCKQUOTE &nbsp;</BLOCKQUOTE &nbsp;</HTML

  Response:

  Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

  <ul <LI apples <l1 oranges is there a relationship. What happens, I think it will stay as typed. any messages there???

  The message is peace!andy   <DD     colour, might be 6 diget # Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <HTML

  <BR&nbsp; <P&lt;ul <BR&lt;LI apples <BR&lt;l1 oranges <BRis there a relationship. <BRWhat happens, I think it will stay as typed.

  <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITEany messages there???</BLOCKQUOTE The message is peace!andy <BR&nbsp; <FONT COLOR="#CCCCCC"&lt;DD&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; colour, might be 6 diget #</FONT</HTML

  Response:

  <HTML &lt;000000 <BR&lt;100000 <BR&lt;UL <BR&lt;LL <P&lt;101010 <BRsent in html. <BR&lt;sent in html <P&lt;Banned in Canada <BR&lt;111000 <BRbanned in canada&lt;

  <BR&nbsp; <P&lt;ul <BR&lt;LI apples <BR&lt;l1 oranges <BRis there a relationship. <BRWhat happens, I think it will stay as typed.

  <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITEany messages there???</BLOCKQUOTE The message is peace!andy <BR&nbsp; <FONT COLOR="#CCCCCC"&lt;DD&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; colour, might be 6 diget #</FONT</BLOCKQUOTE &nbsp;</HTML

  Response:

  Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Panther: Well just woke up refreshed, so great. Uhhh it makes no sense to me. But i can write in invisable ink. I’ve got all I need info and tool wise, now i just need time and patients. There is a great movie from the CBC called my American Cousins, I love it. andy The Verve efremov Bittersweet That’s me all the way I love Survivors, even the ones who bite. Andy (who really likes panther) I dont know what you sent me<HTML but thank-you. dislexiea and mthl, fun! a Challenge!!!!! Dont help too much! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <HTML <HEAD <TITLE Html</TITLE </HEAD <BODY  BACKGROUND COLOR = "#FFFFFF" TEXT = "#000000" <h3<center How about this html text</P <P How are you doing with it?</P <P <P         – Panther (wondering how andy is doing with his web authoring?)</h3</center</P </BODY </HTML <ul <LI apples <l1 oranges is there a relationship. What happens, I think it will stay as typed.      any messages there??? The message is peace!andy   <DD     colour, might be 6 diget # — http://asarian-host.org – anon service  & websites http://asarian-host.org/inpsyte – trauma psychology http://asarian-host.org/beaumond – fiberarts

  Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <HTML <PDear Panther: <BRWell just woke up refreshed, so great. <BRUhhh it makes no sense to me. But i can write in invisable ink. <BRI’ve got all I need info and tool wise, now i just need time and patients. <BRThere is a great movie from the CBC called my American Cousins, <BRI love it. <BRandy The Verve efremov <BRBittersweet That’s<FONT COLOR="#FFFFFF" me all the way I love Survivors, even the ones who bite.</FONT <BRAndy (who really likes panther) <BRI dont know what you sent me&lt;HTML but thank-you. <BRdislexiea and mthl, fun! a Challenge!!!!! <BRDont help too much!

  <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE&lt;HTML <BR&lt;HEAD <BR&lt;TITLE Html&lt;/TITLE <BR&lt;/HEAD <BR&lt;BODY&nbsp; BACKGROUND COLOR = "#FFFFFF" TEXT = "#000000" <BR&lt;h3&lt;center <BRHow about this html text&lt;/P <BR&lt;P <BRHow are you doing with it?&lt;/P <BR&lt;P <BR&lt;P <BR&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; – Panther (wondering how andy is doing with his web <BRauthoring?)&lt;/h3&lt;/center&lt;/P <P&lt;/BODY <BR&lt;/HTML

  <BR

  <BR <BR <BR &lt;ul <BR &lt;LI apples <BR &lt;l1 oranges <BR is there a relationship. <BR What happens, I think it will stay as typed. <BR

  <BR <BR&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; any messages there??? <BR <BR The message is peace!andy <BR&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;DD&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; colour, might be 6 diget # <P– <BR<A HREF="http://asarian-host.org"http://asarian-host.org</A – anon service&nbsp; &amp; websites <BR<A HREF="http://asarian-host.org/inpsyte"http://asarian-host.org/inpsyte</A – trauma psychology <BR<A HREF="http://asarian-host.org/beaumond"http://asarian-host.org/beaumond</A – fiberarts</BLOCKQUOTE &nbsp;</HTML

  Response:

  <HTML <HEAD <TITLE Html</TITLE </HEAD <BODY  BACKGROUND COLOR = "#FFFFFF" TEXT = "#000000" <h3<center How about this html text</P <P How are you doing with it?</P <P <P         – Panther (wondering how andy is doing with his web authoring?)</h3</center</P </BODY </HTML – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <ul <LI apples <l1 oranges is there a relationship. What happens, I think it will stay as typed.      any messages there??? The message is peace!andy   <DD     colour, might be 6 diget #

  – http://asarian-host.org – anon service  & websites http://asarian-host.org/inpsyte – trauma psychology http://asarian-host.org/beaumond – fiberarts

  Response:

  Coming in 5 by 5 Geary ol man. Or with my Macintosh it is. SumBuddie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – any messages there???

  Response:

  any messages there???

  Response:

  any messages there???

  –               Only what you hear in your heart         – Panther http://asarian-host.org – anon service  & websites http://asarian-host.org/inpsyte – trauma psychology http://asarian-host.org/beaumond – fiberarts

  Response:

  No comments Alcohol Abuse Recovery
  
  

• i need info

  Question:

  Karmagrrl, thanks for the tip about the "junk Email"…It is always hard to find out where that comes from.  I belong to the Joke a Day service and one day Jeff accidently sent out all of the then 5000 Email addy’s from his list.  I thought that most of the junk Email was coming from that error. But I could be wrong. When looking for a site to put the Nursing Online Conference Center we wanted somewhere that was easily accessable to anyone, anywhere, that did not require that they download any other programs to get there and was free.  I am not happy that it is required that a membership "handle" and password be required to chat there but I tolerate the advertizements as a means to justify the use of their server. If anyone is aware of another place that does not require a password to enter, but will have the same or close to the same benifits, I would like to check it out. We would like somewhere where we can save the topics of discussion as they are intended to be educational and shared. The goal of the Nursing Online Conference Center is to educate and inform on various health issues and by having a committed professional or volunteer available to answer questions in real time.  It is all done by volunteers who have a desire to share what they know with those that could benifit from their area of expertise or experience.  We have no other hidden adjenda, no matter what others may think. This is not just an addiction recovery site but a place to discuss health issues and addiction recovery is one of the weekly discussions. Again, any constructive feedback would be appreciated. Marilou – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – RE the WBS, please note: even if the services offered on WBS webchat are "free", all of the pages are filled with advertisements large and small, and also they don’t offer an option to check "please don’t sell my email address to mailing lists" option when you sign up! (hence you get tons of junk email) karmagrrl —— http://www.geocities.com/Wellesley/5966

  Response:

  Hi Astri I’m glad that Pat and I were not the only ones to get a funky feeling off of this. After posting a similar kind of questioning post as yours I started having those doubts I have about my gut feelings – in this case "I’m being reactionary" "I’m being paranoid" "I read into everything wrong and I’m reacting in a very unhealthy way". I’m getting *sooo* tired of my perpetual state of mind of questioning all my gut feelings and all my actions … sigh. But it’s validating to see other people have similar feelings of wariness that I do. (god but I wish I’d stop always second guessing myself though!) Julia – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What kind of Information are you seeking Gina? Would you like some free online counseling? you offering a one-shot Ann Landers/Dr. Ruth type thing?  or some sort of promise of ongoing contact? what do you do if there is a question of dangerousness, but you aren’t quite sure about it cuz you don’t have the person in front of you to assess the nonverbal variables?  what do you do if someone is talking about current-day abuse of a child?   There is a place in WBS on Wednesday nights and there is a counselor there…. let me know if you  or anyone else would like information on this….. Also there is a Abuse Recovery Online Counselor on Tuesday nights as was this the substance abuse 12-step counselor you were talking about in one of your other posts? well….contact me at Huggs Marilou are you aware that lots of folks don’t appreciate gratuitous hugs from total stranges and consider that a violation of boundaries?            astri #AKA pink bunnies#                                                          `o’_*    cease to be amused     (:

  Julia * http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tankgrrl "Oh God, Mulder, it smells like… I think it’s bile." "Is there any way I can get it off my fingers quickly  without betraying my cool exterior?"

  Response:

  In all my bluster and righteous indignation, the automated signature defeated me.  I truly meant for that post to be anonymous… Apologies…! —

  Response:

  I’d like to take a moment as a professional (certified social worker with a private practice and web site) with some similar services offered by Ms. Morgan. I too was disturbed by what occurred here.  Not so much by Ms. Morgan’s desire to offer services.  After all, I am reading this group now because I may in future offer a discussion group topic via my website chatroom which I am hoping may be of interest to people here (please note, to avoid conflict of interest questions, I am not including a signature or contact information with this post).  Instead, I was very bothered by Ms. Morgan’s response, which I found to be completely unprofessional.  It was disingenuous, angry and bad form for someone in the field.  As a fellow professional, I found it to be embarrassing.  I can only hope that if a client/patient of her’s ever expresses any criticism, she would have the ethical wherewithal not to respond similarly, attempting to use the client’s own issues against him or her.  Two big thumbs down. Thank you. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [...] At first I thought that this group was an Alcohol Abuse Recovery newsgroup  And because the once a week meeting was focused on such a topic I invited any that would care to join to participate. All the basic introductions to Usenet advise reading a group for a while before you contribute, to get a feel for the dynamics within the group and to avoid embarrassing yourself and others. [..] I can better understand how people that have been abused are not as able to accept a open and friendly gesture… their ability to trust has been hampered. Some of us aren’t too keen on sweeping generalisations either. [...] I have never know it to be such a crime to extend an invitation before…. but then again I have not been around people that are so badly abused…. and so guess I didn’t figure on the defensive system that is there…. There you go doing it again….. I apologise for my intrusion…. and withdraw the invitation….. Just what exactly did *I* do to upset you ?? Jaffa

  Response:

  [...] At first I thought that this group was an Alcohol Abuse Recovery newsgroup  And because the once a week meeting was focused on such a topic I invited any that would care to join to participate.

  All the basic introductions to Usenet advise reading a group for a while before you contribute, to get a feel for the dynamics within the group and to avoid embarrassing yourself and others. [..] I can better understand how people that have been abused are not as able to accept a open and friendly gesture… their ability to trust has been hampered.

  Some of us aren’t too keen on sweeping generalisations either. [...] I have never know it to be such a crime to extend an invitation before…. but then again I have not been around people that are so badly abused…. and so guess I didn’t figure on the defensive system that is there….

  There you go doing it again….. I apologise for my intrusion…. and withdraw the invitation…..

  Just what exactly did *I* do to upset you ?? Jaffa

  Response:

  yeah, what Sherri said! i have a bit to add… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (with much editorial snipping on my part) : At first I thought that this group was an Alcohol Abuse Recovery newsgroup And : because the once a week meeting was focused on such a topic I invited any that : would care to join to participate. : Abuse Recovery can have many meanings.  In this case it appears that the people : here have been abused in many ways… but it appears that the focus was not : Alcohol Abuse. I’ve got a techie-type suggestion to assist you in the future. Most newsgroups, when created and voted into existence, are given a one line description of the group’s general purpose.  And I think that any newsreader can be configured to show you that one-line description.  If your newsreader was so configured, it’d tell you that AAR’s purpose is "Helping victims of abuse to recover"—an imperfect phrasing to be sure, since many of us think of ourselves as survivors and not victims.  But still, it’s *damn* clear from that description that AAR’s focus is not alcoholism.

  i’ve got an addition suggestion: deja news is pretty handy, i think, for determining a group’s focus, just by reading the subject lines. Marilou, if you don’t have time to read all the messages, you could use deja news to scan over the subjects being discussed, and that would have given you a pretty good picture of what type of group this is. just for future reference. If you’re unable (or unwilling) to make the technological adjustment to your newsreader, here’s a interpersonal suggestion that could just as easily prevent such gaffes as yours here.  Take the time to *read* the group you’re posting to before placing advertisements or invitations or whatever you want to call them.  If you had taken *any* length of time to read the posts here, you would have known that this group wasn’t about alcoholism.  And I find it completely *appalling* that you would start advising people of available services when you actually had no idea if those services were appropriate or not.  That’s just bad clinical practice.

  *nodnod* even if this had been an alcoholism recovery group, IMO Marilou would still have to have read the group for a bit first, before posting the info, to see if it was appropriate to the particular group. and i’m betting that not only abuse survivors are wary of such "open and friendly" gestures. i don’t think our abuse history has anything to do with our using our common sense and caution! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : I can better understand how people that have been abused are not as able to accept : a open and friendly gesture… their ability to trust has been hampered. I’ve cut out the rest of your post because it’s more self-serving rhetoric like in this little paragraph. You cannot put this all on abuse victims being unable to trust. Please take a moment to reexamine your own actions.  Metaphorically speaking, you walked into the middle of a room, heard one sentence of a conversation, and then began dispensing advice before taking *any* amount of time to understand what the conversation was about or whether your advice was appropriate—which it wasn’t, was it? In addition, I most sincerely hope that anyone thinking of using your discussion service to heal their alcoholism would ask similar questions about licensing, availability, crisis intervention, etc.  It is everyone’s responsibility to be informed consumers in our differing recoveries, and it is the ethical (and legal, I think) responsibility of recovery services to answer reasoinable questions like those that have been asked here. Any sort of recovery service who has been as resistent to such questions as you have been is not a recovery service I will use.  As simple as that.

  Sherri, you said it well. from Marilou’s post: As for the other question about why I don’t just sit back and respond to others in the same manner as the rest of you do…. I have done this… but unfortunatly I do not have the time to keep up with all the newsgroups.  My "venture" as it has been stated, takes up a bit of my time.  I have been trying to make as many people as possible aware that our online discussion group is available.  Newsgroups are great, but sometimes a lot can be shared in a two hour discussion online in real time…. that is what I was INVITING people to….

  well, try Sherri’s suggestions, they’re good ones. also try using deja news, in order to scan a groups subject lines over a period of time, that will give you a fairly general idea of what a group is all about. i understand about your "venture" if you’re being sincere, then it’s like you’re on a mission. there’s nothing inherently wrong with that. so learn from trial and error, but there’s no need to insult the people in the groups you make an error with. i have a suggestion: set up your own webpage, if you haven’t already, stating exactly what your venture is … then go to http://ww.submit-it.com and submit your page and a description of your venture to all the search engines. people will find you, and that will make your job easier, and also help you on your trial and error process. I have never know it to be such a crime to extend an invitation before…. but then again I have not been around people that are so badly abused…. and so guess I didn’t figure on the defensive system that is there….

  well, this is a sweeping generalization. and you, as a nurse, IMO should know better than to lump people together like that. statements such as the one you make above immediately upset me, i realize it’s because i am SO much more than "someone who was badly abused" and i hate to be stuck in someone’s neat little category slot. if it’s your venture to invite people to support forums, then consider it our venture to educate you about survivors of abuse so you can learn something new. nothing wrong with learning karmagrrl —— http://www.geocities.com/Wellesley/5966

  Response:

  (with much editorial snipping on my part) : At first I thought that this group was an Alcohol Abuse Recovery newsgroup And : because the once a week meeting was focused on such a topic I invited any that : would care to join to participate. : Abuse Recovery can have many meanings.  In this case it appears that the people : here have been abused in many ways… but it appears that the focus was not : Alcohol Abuse. I’ve got a techie-type suggestion to assist you in the future. Most newsgroups, when created and voted into existence, are given a one line description of the group’s general purpose.  And I think that any newsreader can be configured to show you that one-line description.  If your newsreader was so configured, it’d tell you that AAR’s purpose is "Helping victims of abuse to recover"—an imperfect phrasing to be sure, since many of us think of ourselves as survivors and not victims.  But still, it’s *damn* clear from that description that AAR’s focus is not alcoholism. If you’re unable (or unwilling) to make the technological adjustment to your newsreader, here’s a interpersonal suggestion that could just as easily prevent such gaffes as yours here.  Take the time to *read* the group you’re posting to before placing advertisements or invitations or whatever you want to call them.  If you had taken *any* length of time to read the posts here, you would have known that this group wasn’t about alcoholism.  And I find it completely *appalling* that you would start advising people of available services when you actually had no idea if those services were appropriate or not.  That’s just bad clinical practice. : I can better understand how people that have been abused are not as able to accept : a open and friendly gesture… their ability to trust has been hampered. I’ve cut out the rest of your post because it’s more self-serving rhetoric like in this little paragraph. You cannot put this all on abuse victims being unable to trust. Please take a moment to reexamine your own actions.  Metaphorically speaking, you walked into the middle of a room, heard one sentence of a conversation, and then began dispensing advice before taking *any* amount of time to understand what the conversation was about or whether your advice was appropriate—which it wasn’t, was it? In addition, I most sincerely hope that anyone thinking of using your discussion service to heal their alcoholism would ask similar questions about licensing, availability, crisis intervention, etc.  It is everyone’s responsibility to be informed consumers in our differing recoveries, and it is the ethical (and legal, I think) responsibility of recovery services to answer reasoinable questions like those that have been asked here. Any sort of recovery service who has been as resistent to such questions as you have been is not a recovery service I will use.  As simple as that. : Marilou Sherri

  Response:

  - Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Julia, Astri, Pat, all     ..just a small note to let you know that I’m grateful for your thoughts and efforts in this matter.  you guys have been really great in bringing up stuff that’s really on-target and involves the kinds of warning bells and insights that, for lack of better words, just really makes *sense*.      I really appreciate your looking out for us.  Like mother hens of sorts, tending after their own.  It’s one of the things I really love about this group!  So much genuine caring here.. like the kind I see in your words in this thread.                                    Thanks again,                                              –Susan J. Montagnet wrote in part: Hi Astri I’m glad that Pat and I were not the only ones to get a funky feeling off of this. After posting a similar kind of questioning post as yours I started having those doubts I have about my gut feelings – in this case "I’m being reactionary" "I’m being paranoid" "I read into everything wrong and I’m reacting in a very unhealthy way". (if she really wanted to help, what’s stopping her from just sitting back and contributing to the threads here?  why the need to take it to her own special forum? .. this is a place where degrees dont matter, and support tends to be appreciated regardless of the source.  if she and her fellow nurses really are feeling philanthropic and want to express those feelings via the internet, there’s way more than enough places for them to just step in and offer encouragement *here*, imho)

  Why should anyone INVITE anyone anywhere. At first I thought that this group was an Alcohol Abuse Recovery newsgroup  And because the once a week meeting was focused on such a topic I invited any that would care to join to participate. There was also groups on Acupuncture, Marijuana as Therapy, Home Health for Vent Dependent patients…. but I didn’t invite anyone here to those discussion groups because I didn’t think the people here would find the need. Abuse Recovery can have many meanings.  In this case it appears that the people here have been abused in many ways… but it appears that the focus was not Alcohol Abuse. I can better understand how people that have been abused are not as able to accept a open and friendly gesture… their ability to trust has been hampered. The need to attack me because  I have put my "title" in my Email return address did not readily occur to me… I am not usually chastised for having an education, … someone else it appears has felt more of a need to emphasize my title… as for me it is so second nature to me… it did not occur to me to remove it from my account just because I was in a newsgroup. As for the other question about why I don’t just sit back and respond to others in the same manner as the rest of you do…. I have done this… but unfortunatly I do not have the time to keep up with all the newsgroups.  My "venture" as it has been stated, takes up a bit of my time.  I have been trying to make as many people as possible aware that our online discussion group is available.  Newsgroups are great, but sometimes a lot can be shared in a two hour discussion online in real time…. that is what I was INVITING people to…. I have never know it to be such a crime to extend an invitation before…. but then again I have not been around people that are so badly abused…. and so guess I didn’t figure on the defensive system that is there…. I apologise for my intrusion…. and withdraw the invitation….. Marilou

  Response:

  Hi Julia, Astri, Pat, all     ..just a small note to let you know that I’m grateful for your thoughts and efforts in this matter.  you guys have been really great in bringing up stuff that’s really on-target and involves the kinds of warning bells and insights that, for lack of better words, just really makes *sense*.      I really appreciate your looking out for us.  Like mother hens of sorts, tending after their own.  It’s one of the things I really love about this group!  So much genuine caring here.. like the kind I see in your words in this thread.                                    Thanks again,                                              –Susan J. Montagnet wrote in part: Hi Astri I’m glad that Pat and I were not the only ones to get a funky feeling off of this. After posting a similar kind of questioning post as yours I started having those doubts I have about my gut feelings – in this case "I’m being reactionary" "I’m being paranoid" "I read into everything wrong and I’m reacting in a very unhealthy way".

  (if she really wanted to help, what’s stopping her from just sitting back and contributing to the threads here?  why the need to take it to her own special forum? .. this is a place where degrees dont matter, and support tends to be appreciated regardless of the source.  if she and her fellow nurses really are feeling philanthropic and want to express those feelings via the internet, there’s way more than enough places for them to just step in and offer encouragement *here*, imho)

  Response:

  Hi Diz,         Are you here to stay and participate in the group or are you just here to promote Masrilou’s venture?         – Panther – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Marilou, I am interested to find out more about the online counseling. Please could you give me some info. Thanks, Diz What kind of Information are you seeking Gina? Would you like some free online counseling? There is a place in WBS on Wednesday nights and there is a counselor there…. let me know if you  or anyone else would like information on this….. Also there is a Abuse Recovery Online Counselor on Tuesday nights as well….contact me at Huggs Marilou my husband has been what i call mental abuse, i feel why sould i need someone maybe he does need help.

  – http://asarian-host.org – anon service  & websites http://asarian-host.org/inpsyte – trauma psychology http://asarian-host.org/beaumond – fiberarts

  Response:

  Marilou Morgan RN If you wish to peddle your site.. do it away from here.  Even the mighty Gohrol doesn’t come here.. If you wish to share your experiences and be a participant of this group, you are more than willing.. But I will say this..  for each post where you Advertise you services, I will respond in a negative fashion.. Oh, BTW,,, didn’t you say you were going to post your licensing information? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Marilou, I am interested to find out more about the online counseling. Please could you give me some info. Thanks, Diz Diz, This is what I know.  There is a place called WBS. It can be reached by going to http://www.wbs.net At WBS there are several groups in a community called "Support" it is located in the  HOME & SUPPORT section of their chat rooms. One of the Chat rooms is called Psych Central.  This is what the "front page" of the chat room has to say……                        John Grohol, Psy.D. will gladly answer questions about mental health,                        provide caring words of wisdom, point you in the right direction for                        support and mental health resources online, s well as offer informative                        opinions about psychological issues of importance in today’s                        ever-changing world. Psych Central is the one room on the internet                        where you are truly accepted for yourself. If you have problems, and are                        looking for an unprejudiced ear, or people who are interested in you as a                        person, this is the place to be. You can find friendly, helpful people who                        will offer support and friendship to those who truly want it. Though I do not agree with his statement "Psych Central is the one room" because I think there are several places where this type of interaction is taking place…. I think that for general Psych questions he would be a good place to begin. He is in this room on Wednesday’s from 6-7:30PM . Another room in this group of Support rooms that can be benificial to address Addiciton Recovery issues is the TeleMedicine Room …with Host Pat (aka Red43) that meets on Tuesday nights from 7-9PM. Pacific Standard time.  Pat has quite a lot of experience with counseling specific to addiction issues though he is not a LICENSED counselor… nor does he claim to be…. just one former alcoholic helping others.  After doing that sort of thing for a long time you get kind of good at it.. There are other groups that chat online but those are the two that I know of that are consistantly available, are offered as a FREE service and can be reached with any browser without downloading any other programs….. Hope this gives you the information that you are seeking. Huggs, Marilou….

  Response:

  RE the WBS, please note: even if the services offered on WBS webchat are "free", all of the pages are filled with advertisements large and small, and also they don’t offer an option to check "please don’t sell my email address to mailing lists" option when you sign up! (hence you get tons of junk email) karmagrrl —— http://www.geocities.com/Wellesley/5966

  Response:

  Marilou, I am interested to find out more about the online counseling. Please could you give me some info. Thanks, Diz

  Diz, This is what I know.  There is a place called WBS. It can be reached by going to http://www.wbs.net At WBS there are several groups in a community called "Support" it is located in the  HOME & SUPPORT section of their chat rooms. One of the Chat rooms is called Psych Central.  This is what the "front page" of the chat room has to say……                         John Grohol, Psy.D. will gladly answer questions about mental health,                         provide caring words of wisdom, point you in the right direction for                         support and mental health resources online, s well as offer informative                         opinions about psychological issues of importance in today’s                         ever-changing world. Psych Central is the one room on the internet                         where you are truly accepted for yourself. If you have problems, and are                         looking for an unprejudiced ear, or people who are interested in you as a                         person, this is the place to be. You can find friendly, helpful people who                         will offer support and friendship to those who truly want it. Though I do not agree with his statement "Psych Central is the one room" because I think there are several places where this type of interaction is taking place…. I think that for general Psych questions he would be a good place to begin. He is in this room on Wednesday’s from 6-7:30PM . Another room in this group of Support rooms that can be benificial to address Addiciton Recovery issues is the TeleMedicine Room …with Host Pat (aka Red43) that meets on Tuesday nights from 7-9PM. Pacific Standard time.  Pat has quite a lot of experience with counseling specific to addiction issues though he is not a LICENSED counselor… nor does he claim to be…. just one former alcoholic helping others.  After doing that sort of thing for a long time you get kind of good at it.. There are other groups that chat online but those are the two that I know of that are consistantly available, are offered as a FREE service and can be reached with any browser without downloading any other programs….. Hope this gives you the information that you are seeking. Huggs, Marilou….

  Response:

  Marilou, I am interested to find out more about the online counseling. Please could you give me some info. Thanks, Diz – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What kind of Information are you seeking Gina? Would you like some free online counseling? There is a place in WBS on Wednesday nights and there is a counselor there…. let me know if you  or anyone else would like information on this….. Also there is a Abuse Recovery Online Counselor on Tuesday nights as well….contact me at Huggs Marilou my husband has been what i call mental abuse, i feel why sould i need someone maybe he does need help.

  Response:

  Let me know if you would like to find some free counseling on the web…. Marilou – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – my husband has been what i call mental abuse, i feel why sould i need someone maybe he does need help. but im in a situation where my husband critizises me a coud  need help from him its not me that does this its him Have A Great Day! Regards,Gina(^_^)

  Response:

  Sometimes things that are simple and true are so easily misinterpreted because we are expecting to be taken advantage of.  We live in a HARD world

  That’s true. We do live in a hard world and it is good for people to be wary. I think it’s very healthy and appropriate to approach an online-counseling as one would approach a "real-life" counseling. "What are your credentials?" "Where were you educated?" "For what are you licenced?" "Why are you offering free counseling?" I would not jump into therapy with a real life counselor without discovering more about them anymore than I would on the internet. To say that’s "sad" or "not necessary" sounds a bit manipulative and suspect – why wouldn’t it be? Am I supposed to blindly walk everywhere thinking if I pray or envision a white glow around myself I will be immortal? Or if I only think positive thoughts I will only draw positive people? No … I think I’d like to live past 30. have to offer is truly FREE and done in only the interest of assisting others.

  Well, that sounds very kind. If you would please give us information regarding liscencing, education, specialties, what organizations you’re involved with professionally, and how often you are available – then I’m sure there will be people interested. Don’t forget though, many people who post to this ng already have therapists and counselors – they come to this ng for more social aspects of a support group. A lot of people *aren’t* looking for counseling here because we have that in our real lives. And there are avenues to receive free counseling or sliding scale counseling in the "real world" where patients are given free access to credentials, education and counselor’s backgrounds. So – without that, you will not draw much of a crowd. I see you see have not provided your licensing or other creditials..

  Uh – what Pat said … I can almost visualize the "flaming" as I prepar to send this message.  Who the "heaven" does she think she is?  This is who I AM… I am a person with a big heart and a desire to help others.  If that is a problem to someone’s ego keep your flaming to yourself, because I will simply ignore it.

  No flame – it’s just that your first posting of this was not just a message with all the information about credentials, etc. but a reply to a post – and posted about five times with two different replies with the same info. It reeked of spam. That’s just the way it is. If that’s not the case, then maybe you could try again – just by posting a seperate post (once) with where to go, the psychologist or counselors credentials/education, his available times and what has prompted him to want to donate his time like this. It’s perfectly fine to donate one’s time. I work for free sometimes for the NW AIDS Foundation – but I also have to supply my license number and my education and proof of credentials. And one of the big interview questions was "Why are you volunteering your time and skills?" Because they don’t want someone with a Messiah complex to come down and treat all these "poor AIDS victim people" like they are doing them a favor. The same goes for the type of volunteer counselors abuse survivors deserve to see. Not a flame – and you’re not hurting my ego – but you didn’t present yourself very well or make a very good impression. Let’s try this again a different way, Ok? Julia Julia * http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tankgrrl "Oh God, Mulder, it smells like… I think it’s bile." "Is there any way I can get it off my fingers quickly  without betraying my cool exterior?"

  Response:

  What kind of Information are you seeking Gina? Would you like some free online counseling? There is a place in WBS on Wednesday nights and there is a counselor there…. let me know if you  or anyone else would like information on this….. Also there is a Abuse Recovery Online Counselor on Tuesday nights as well….contact me at Huggs Marilou – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – my husband has been what i call mental abuse, i feel why sould i need someone maybe he does need help. but im in a situation where my husband critizises me a coud  need help from him its not me that does this its him Have A Great Day! Regards,Gina(^_^)

  Response:

  mean-old-pat, Well didn’t mean to step on your buttons or anyone’s else’s… The phrase "if it’s too good to be true, than it probably isn’t" comes to mind here.

  yep Sometimes things that are simple and true are so easily misinterpreted because we are expecting to be taken advantage of.  We live in a HARD world

  works that 99.99% of the time.. people take advantage of people every day. and there are a LOT of people out there trying to make a buck off of vulnerable and innocent people.  But I am not one of them.  Actually what I

  yeah, and they work this group as well.. just a couple of months ago, we had the preacher man and his pasty drop by.. now, they weren’t free.. but offered Anonymous counseling over the net.. only they wanted your name, address, and VISA card number.. have to offer is truly FREE and done in only the interest of assisting others.

  and the advice of those who have walked that mile, been there, done that.. is also FREE.. that’s what we have here. We dont have "professionals" hawking their wares..   I am in the process of building an Online Nursing Conference Center and one of my weekly hosts is quite experienced in abuse counseling.  This is not to say that there are not people in your newsgroup that are not equally or more expert.  This is only to say that he is AVAILABLE for free weekly counseling on a regular basis for  Recovery Abuse issues.  I suppose Counseling is probably a term that implies licensure or fees…. lets try another term… SUPPORT…. support of recovery…. support of issues that need to be dealt with… support like is done in a newsgroup but this is more interactive… same thing that goes on in your newsgroup but with the answers coming from different people in a two hour time-frame instead of a weekly time-frame.

  ANYONE can hang their shingle up on the WEB.. that’s the beauty of it and the danger of it.. I see you see have not provided your licensing or other creditials.. We have interactive.. Apparently you didn’t read close enough.. It’s called IRC. We – meaning the netizens of this newsgroup and anyone else how happens by can join us..  And we are free. The other person I was referring to is actually a licensed Psychologist that does in fact do online counseling for free… he is also at WBS… but he deals with various issues and not just recovery abuse issues like the person that is volunteering his time has done in the TeleMed Room of WBS.

  Again.. Where are your creditials.. or those of the licensed psychologist? The WBS rooms where we are located  are accessable to anyone with a browser.

  and anyone with a browser can set up shop.. and carry on business.. It does not require downloading of a different program like IRC or PowWow or ICQ.  It does require membership but the membership is free and I have NEVER been asked for any money or anything having been a member for almost two years.  It is truly free.  Sometimes things that are too good to be true….. ARE TRUE…. though rare.

  You still neglected to post your license information.  Where did you or your partner, the licensed psychologist go to school..  What was your area of study..  In what states are you licensed? In what city and or state are you licensed to carry on this type of therapeutic intervition over the net? Marilou P.S. I can almost visualize the "flaming" as I prepar to send this message.  Who the "heaven" does she think she is?  This is who I AM… I am a person with a big heart and a desire to help others.  If that is a problem to someone’s ego keep your flaming to yourself, because I will simply ignore it.

  You mean, if we don’t let you help us, you will leave? Bye.. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

  Response:

  mean-old-pat, Well didn’t mean to step on your buttons or anyone’s else’s… The phrase "if it’s too good to be true, than it probably isn’t" comes to mind here. Sometimes things that are simple and true are so easily misinterpreted because we are expecting to be taken advantage of.  We live in a HARD world and there are a LOT of people out there trying to make a buck off of vulnerable and innocent people.  But I am not one of them.  Actually what I have to offer is truly FREE and done in only the interest of assisting others. I am in the process of building an Online Nursing Conference Center and one of my weekly hosts is quite experienced in abuse counseling.  This is not to say that there are not people in your newsgroup that are not equally or more expert.  This is only to say that he is AVAILABLE for free weekly counseling on a regular basis for  Recovery Abuse issues.  I suppose Counseling is probably a term that implies licensure or fees…. lets try another term… SUPPORT…. support of recovery…. support of issues that need to be dealt with… support like is done in a newsgroup but this is more interactive… same thing that goes on in your newsgroup but with the answers coming from different people in a two hour time-frame instead of a weekly time-frame. The other person I was referring to is actually a licensed Psychologist that does in fact do online counseling for free… he is also at WBS… but he deals with various issues and not just recovery abuse issues like the person that is volunteering his time has done in the TeleMed Room of WBS. The WBS rooms where we are located  are accessable to anyone with a browser. It does not require downloading of a different program like IRC or PowWow or ICQ.  It does require membership but the membership is free and I have NEVER been asked for any money or anything having been a member for almost two years.  It is truly free.  Sometimes things that are too good to be true….. ARE TRUE…. though rare. Marilou P.S. I can almost visualize the "flaming" as I prepar to send this message.  Who the "heaven" does she think she is?  This is who I AM… I am a person with a big heart and a desire to help others.  If that is a problem to someone’s ego keep your flaming to yourself, because I will simply ignore it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

  Response:

  Howdy Nurse Morgan.. I was just skimming through posts this morning.. and caught this reply here..  And honey chile, you don’t stepped on one of my BT Barnum trigger points.. The net is full of con artists in all shapes and sizes… Now, the think I hate about con artists is they take advantage of people when they least expect it..  Gina is new to this newsgroup.  Whether or not she is new to the net, welll, frankly I don’t know. What I do know is that this group is trolled for fresh fish every now and then.. and your post here struck me just that way. Therapy is not something which is done online..  Observation is a very critical part of the process. Then, of course, comes the issue of creditionaling and licensure.. Care to share that information?   If not, then please refrain from soliciting clients in this newsgroup. And if you do share, be aware that I will check it out.. What kind of Information are you seeking Gina? Would you like some free online counseling?

  that’s sort of what this place is.. Group therapy without the intervention of a "leader"..  We do have several long-time subscribers of this group who have advance degrees in psychology, but none of them practice their trade here. There is a place in WBS on Wednesday nights and there is a counselor there…. let me know if you  or anyone else would like information on this…..

  we also have a chat channel on EFnet.. every night.. no fees either.. check it out  #aar Also there is a Abuse Recovery Online Counselor on Tuesday nights as well….contact me at

  and your fees, licensure?   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Huggs Marilou my husband has been what i call mental abuse, i feel why sould i need someone maybe he does need help. but im in a situation where my husband critizises me a coud  need help from him its not me that does this its him Have A Great Day! Regards,Gina(^_^)

  Response:

  Hi Gina,    Sorry to hear you are having a tough time with your husband. I used to be with a man who had nothing nice to say and it wore me down and out.    As the story goes, he is just like my father. What get’s me is that he was nothing like my father when I met him. After six months with this man that I almost married, he suddenly became just like my mean nothing nice to say   All I can say is that life is short and it is not your falt your husband can not talk to you in a civilized manner. He needs help or you need to get out. Take Care, Candace

  Response:

  my husband has been what i call mental abuse, i feel why sould i need someone maybe he does need help. but im in a situation where my husband critizises me a coud  need help from him its not me that does this its him Have A Great Day! Regards,Gina(^_^)

  Response:

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• Where's Wellstone on the BWCAW?

  Question:

     <<Bunch o’ stuff snipped We are opposed to any land addition outside the existing boundaries of the BWCA that further damages local government revenue, destabilizes communities, further restricts Native American treaty rights, curtails economic activity, or impinges on private property rights.

  How would these thing occur?  If the wilderness boundary is expanded to include areas that are already owned and managed by the government I don’t see how that would necessarily damage the local governments revenue, destabalize the communities, restrict the Native American treaty rights or inpinge on private property rights.  I certainly might curtail economic activity if the land that is brought into the wilderness is currently used as timber or mining land.  While expansion might cause the boundaries to surround private land parcels, that could also be avoided in the planning process by planning to avoid creating "inholding" situations. We are also concerned that the three counties in which the entire BWCA is located, the amount of government owned land varies between 64% – 92%. Imagine the impact on the lives of Hennepin county residents in the Twin Cities area, or Cook county in the Chicago area if the same percentages of land were mostly put off-limits to human use in those counties?

  Yes, and think about how the three counties would change if you put the populations of the Twin Cities or Chicago in that area.  My point is you’re arguing a fantasy rather than reality.   It’s not a matter of "liking" or not liking the lawyers that wrote it. The point is that they are proven, self-admitted liars, that is, they are people who cannot be trusted. Honestly, ask yourself how you would feel about dealing with people who had lied to you and cheated you out of something very important to you in the past, especially when it involves the same word games on the same issue.     We may live up north but we still want to be treated like humans – with respect and dignity.

  The original poster had mentioned that you seemed to dislike the bill because of it’s authors and not it’s merits.  This certainly seems to prove him right.   I am sorry but when it comes to hurting innocent people closing the truck portages is way down on the list. Sometimes it seems the rhetoric CWCS and the Friends select is  designed to inflame rather then explain. First, you wrongly assert that the human, social wreckage caused in these parts by people with attitudes like yours (colonial attitudes) is limited to closing three truck portages. The history of resource conflicts in this region extends back at least 100 years.

  The history of resource conflicts in all of the U.S. extends back at least 100 years.  Your region isn’t special there.  The truck portages are just one of the more recent examples. Unfortunately history is written by those who win, so you will have trouble finding an objective and accurate cultural history of this region.

  You seem to be saying that if the losers wrote the history it would be more objective and accurate.  I would contend that it would be just as subjective and inaccurate, but it would be a different point of view.  The objective and accurate history lies somewhere between the winners viewpoint and the losers viewpoint. The best you can hope to do is to live here for a while and make an honest attempt to listen to multiple generations of local people tell there stories.  Short of doing that your ability to find the information you need to form a well-informed opinion is limited.

  I cannot concur.  We’re talking about Federal land here.  It belongs to the person in the far reaches of Alaska as much as it belongs to the resident of Ely, MN.  The resident of Ely certainly will have a different take on the issue than the Alaskan does, but it doesn’t make the Alaskan’s view any less relevent or important. And what do you mean by "the information you need"?  If you mean the information and personal experience to share _your_ point of view, then yeah, you’d have to live there.  But I contend that your point of view isn’t the only relevent point of view.  Even though I live in New Mexico, my point of view is just as important and relevant to the issue as your’s because we’re talking about Federal land that is "owned" as much by me as by you.   Gee, you don’t live near the Petroglyph National Monument, Yellowstone NP, the Gila Wilderness, et. al.  So you’re saying that you will waive your right to be concerned and involved on how those areas are managed?     The U.S. Dept of Interior released a study completed in 1992 dealing with the human costs of the Endangered Species Act (specifically, the northern spotted owl) in N.W. United States timber dependent communities.  Substitute "wilderness" for "timber" and think of the BWCA:   "Sociological research shows that social costs in ‘timber’ dependent communities may be heightened by the stereotyping and stigmatizing methods that some groups advocating preservation have employed…particularly against local residents.   The combination of ecomonic stress and stigmatization can lead to depression and passivity, drug and alcohol abuse, violence and family dysfunction. Sociologists  regard such situations as life-threatening traumas that can cause maladaptive  behavior patterns that can be transmitted through families for generations."

  I love it when people take a quote, offer to change the wording and then apply the quote to a different subject.  Gee, let’s do with some other quotes and see what we come up with…   If you lived here awhile you would see that it isn’t limited to the NW U.S. and that it is happening as a direct result of the events of 1978 as well as previous and subsequent similar ones. Second, you join the company of most natural resource managers (and others who want to control the use of natural resources) who fail to understand that when you think you are just managing natural resources (in this case wilderness) what you are really managing is how people use that resource.

  I, for one, have always realized that we are managing people.  And that is exactly the point.  And it goes on not just on Federal wild lands but everywhere in society.  The laws of your state, county, city, etc. all are meant to manage people.  Anyone who thinks that they can manage nature are as wrongheaded as I believe former Alaskan governor Walter Hickle was when he said, "We can’t just let nature run wild."  That’s the only way nature knows how to run.  The question is how much of nature we should pave over or extinguish and how much we should leave alone. << Quote snipped The key animal is the human animal. Yet you, like so many others who have no concept – not even the slightest clue really as to what the effect of your desire for "Wilderness" has done to many people – can sit secure in front of your computer and tell others who you and your ilk have victimized, that their suffering is ‘way down the list’.

  But you know all and see all?  The fact is you don’t know any more (or any less) than he does the extent of your lifes actions.  Yet you do exactly what you condemn him of doing "sit(ing) secure in front of your computer and tell(ing) others who you and your ilk have victimized…" that their concerns are way down the list.   If it weren’t for the fact that you and most of the others like have never heard the whole story and are in a sense blissfully ignorant of the consequences of your actions, I’d say that you were sick and scary people.

  And it’s because of the fact that you and most of the others like you have never considered that there are other "owners" of the Federal land who have a viewpoint that is just as valid as yours, and that you are blissfully ignorant of our interest in how that land is managed, I’d say that you _are_ a very scary people. If you’ve read troubled waters and didn’t find anything wrong with the tactics of the Friends, I hope you get your moral compass checked.  Our Congress is often forced to make laws because the courts make such poor decisions – that too is our system of government.

  Conversly, it could be argued that the courts are often forced to strike down laws (or portions thereof) because Congress makes such poor decisions. First though, ask yourself if any group of people without political power or money, such as us ‘locals’, would organize and fight as hard as we have without good reason. We aren’t doing this for fun. None of us are getting paid to do this.  We are all making huge personal and professional sacrifices for our involvement. About the only thing we get out of it is to see our names dragged through the mud of the StarTribune and on the Internet.

  In other words, you’re just as politically powerful as the average American.  The only political power the average person has is the power to vote and the power to complain to (and praise) their elected officials (and try to get their fellow citizens involved as well). The average citizen doesn’t get paid for this, makes huge personal and professional sacrifices for thier active involvment in the system, and get to see thier names dragged through the local press (and occaissionally the Internet) by their opposing citizens.  In this, the people of northern Minnesota (regardless of which side of this issue they are on) have American community or region). Do you realize that preservationists have publicly released a plan to make 5.5 million acres of northern Minnesota wilderness (currently there is 1 million). Do you know about he MN Ecosystems Recovery Project?  

  I’ve heard about such a project that deals with the entire country.  And as I understand it … read more »

  Response:

  I was under the impression that posts by "cwcs" represented official positions of Conservationists with Common Sense. Am I to assume then that it is the official position of CWCS that: I am one of those people with "colonial attitudes". I join the "company of most natural resource managers … who fail to understand that when you think you are managing natural resources (in this case wilderness) what you are really managing is how people use that resource" That I have "no concept – not even the slightest clue really as to what effect [my] desire for wilderness has done to many people … [that] you and your ilk have victimized" I am flattered that CWCS has taken an official position on me. CWCS seems to know quite a lot about me considering all I did was ask what the CWCS position on the Wellstone bill was. One thing you have apparently missed is that when I ask a question I want to know the answer. I ask questions because I am seeking information. I believe that people with what sometimes appear to be irreconcilable differences of opinion can come to understand and even appreciate each other. The first step in that process is to respect and acknowledge those differences and refrain from personal attacks. Regarding your assessment of my beliefs and attitudes. Unless your ancestors have lived here for 500 years or more please don’t accuse me of having a colonial attitude. I am very interested in, and somewhat knowledgeable of, public/private cooperative ef forts to manage natural resources. It is fascinating to me that you include in your post a quote from a sociologist regarding the negative consequences of "stereotyping and stigmatizing that some groups advocating preservation have employed." Perhaps if you look closely you will see that p reservation groups may not be the only ones engaging in those tactics. I have spent the past 25 years in the human services field – I am very aware of human tragedy and multi-generational trauma. I know about the effect of conflict and hardship on families and individuals, please don’t tell me that I don’t. Now back to the issues. You have a valid concern about the high percentage of publicly owned land in the counties containing the Superior National Forest, Voyageurs and the BWCAW. It seems reasonable that any bill proposing additional land be designated wilderness contain some mechanism of compensation. However, isn’t it true that the land Wellstone has identified for inclusion is already publicly owned, most of it federal land. The Wellstone bill returns the truck portages – your goal — and designates additional land as wilderness – a preservationist goal. The preservationists apparently object to any amendment of the ‘78 law on the grounds that it starts us on the slippery slope to repealing the act. And this is what I was trying to find out, apparently you object to any additional wilderness designation on the grounds that it damages local government revenue, destabilizes communities, impinges on property rights and further r estricts treaty rights. Do you have the results of any economic impact studies that have assessed the impact on the public and private sectors? Are you aware of any native governments that have taken a stand in opposition to expansion of the wilderness area? Personally, I don’t believe it is valid to compare the economic stress of NE Minnesota with that of the logging communities in the Northwest. Just compare Ely with any logging community in the NW.  To the credit of the community, Ely was able to adapt its economy to the realities of the 1964 and 1978 laws. Many of the logging communities in the Northwest are ghost towns. It is clear from your post that you see the truck portage issue as the tip of the iceberg. You correctly point out that the history of resource conflicts goes back over 100 years. I submit that it goes back much longer than that and includes attempted genocide. You ask "why doesn’t anybody ask the preservationists" when they will stop. The answer is simple – the land that is available for wilderness designation and preservation is very limited. On the other hand, what little wilderness we have left could be eliminated in a very few years. When you talk about the injustice of the 1978 law the obvious question is "do you wish to see it repealed". On a side note, it is my usual practice when authoring responses for organizations that I represent to sign the note Bruce Barnard for "whatever organization" The practice demonstrates that I take responsibility for the content and am accountable for any misrepresentation of my organizations views. It is something you may wish to consider for CWCS. — — Bruce    http://www.cu-online.com/~barnard/    

  Response:

  – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – CWCS opposes Senator Wellstone’s bill.  Other than acknowledging that truck portaging in and of itself is compatible in the BWCA,  it is full of devastating consequences for wilderness lovers -paddlers and motor users alike (if you don

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