Even though this about depression, a lot of the info can also be used for anxiety disorders as well. Wal-mart Offers $4 Prescription Meds Wal-mart announced a plan yesterday that could be a big help for those without medical insurance, including seniors affected by the "doughnut hole" coverage gap in their Medicare Part D prescription drug plans. They will be making nearly 300 generic drugs available for $4 a prescription for up to a 30-day supply at commonly prescribed doses. Among the drugs available which could benefit depression and manic depression patients are Amitriptyline, Doxepin, Fluoxetine, Carbamazepine, Lithium Carbonate, Nortriptyline and Trazodone. Currently the program will only cover 65 Walmart, Neighborhood Market and Sam’s Club locations in the Tampa Bay, FL area, but plans exist to expand to the entire state of Florida by January 2007 and to extend to as many states as possible next year. $4 Generic Drug List: http://i.walmart.com/i/if/hmp/fusion/Floridagenericdruglist.pdf Participating Stores: http://i.walmart.com/i/if/hmp/fusion/Floridastorelist.pdf http://depression.about.com/b/a/257642.htm How to Get Free or Low-Cost Treatment for Depression http://depression.about.com/cs/findadoc/a/freelowcosttx.htm http://depression.about.com/cs/findadoc/a/freelowcosttx_2.htm From Nancy Schimelpfening,

Your Guide to Depression. Online Resources Perhaps the only thing worse than depression is having depression and not being able to afford treatment. I frequently get letters from those of you who are in just this predicament. I’ve collected here all of the free and low-cost resources and ideas that I have come across in the past couple of years. I will continue to add more as I find them. If you have a suggestion for something that I’ve overlooked please write to me at LOW COST MEDS Pill Splitting – An article in the September 1999 issue of Clinical Psychiatry News reports that you may be able to purchase a higher dose pill at a cost only slightly more than the dose you’re currently on and split them in half. In a presentation to the APA, it was reported that patients can save an average of 37% off their current medication costs by pill splitting. A list of the medications surveyed included popular antidepressants. FREE MEDS Needy Meds – This site is a bit difficult to navigate, but all the information you need to get your meds for free can be found by clicking the name of your drug in the list on the left side of the page. They are also trying to sell a book, but all the same information can be found on their web site for free. Appears to be frequently updated. The Medicine Program – If you do not have insurance and do not qualify for government programs you may qualify to enroll in a privately sponsored program. There is a $5.00 processing fee for each medication requested through this organization, but the medications themselves are free. Volunteers staff this organization and the processing fee covers their expenses. They are basically contacting the drug manufacturers on your behalf. You may also contact these companies directly using the information provided in the following link. Free Samples – Often pharmaceutical companies provide physicians with free samples. Ask your doctor is he/she has any samples on hand of your medication. I used to get all my Buspar this way. LOW COST TREATMENT Sliding Scale Fees – Some providers may have sliding-scale fees. Based on your income, the provider will reduce his or her fees. Negotiate a Lower Fee with Your Doctor – Other providers, if they are aware of your financial limitations, may be willing to negotiate a payment plan that you can afford or to lower their rates according to what your insurance plan pays. Community Mental Health Centers – Many communities have community mental health centers (CMHCs). These centers offer a range of mental health treatment and counseling services, usually at a reduced rate for low-income people. CMHCs generally require that you have a private insurance plan or be a recipient of public assistance. For more information about Community Mental Health Centers: National Council for Community Behavioral Health Care 12300 Twinbrook Parkway, Suite 320 Rockville, MD 20850 voice: 301-984-6200 fax: 301-881-7159 http://www.nccbh.org/ Pastoral Counseling Programs – Your church or synagogue can put you in touch with a pastoral counseling program. Certified pastoral counselors, who are ministers in a recognized religious body, have advanced degrees in pastoral counseling, as well as professional counseling experience. Pastoral counseling is often provided on a sliding-scale fee. For more information about Pastoral Counseling Programs: American Association of Pastoral Counselors 9504-A Lee Highway Fairfax, VA 22031-2303 voice: 703-385-6967 fax: 703-352-7725 http://www.aapc.org/ SELF-HELP AND SUPPORT GROUPS Another option is to join a self-help or support group. These groups give people a chance to talk about and work on their common problems-such as alcoholism, substance abuse, depression, family issues, and relationships. Self-help groups are generally free and can be found in most communities. You may also join an online support group right here at About. We have a support group meeting 24 hours a day in our chat room. For more information about Self-Help Groups: American Self-Help Clearinghouse Northwest Covenant Medical Center 25 Pocono Road Denville, NJ 07834-2995 voice: 201-625-9565 fax: 201-625-9565 http://mentalhelp.net/selfhelp/ National Mental Health Self-Help Clearinghouse 1211 Chestnut Street, Suite 1000 Philadelphia, PA 19107 800-553-4KEY http://depression.about.com/cs/findadoc/a/freelowcosttx.htm More Resources PUBLIC ASSISTANCE People with severe mental illness may be eligible for several forms of public assistance, both to meet basic costs of living and to pay for health care. Such programs include Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and disability benefits. For information about Social Security, Medicare, and disability benefits call:Social Security Administration at 800-772-1213. SSA Web site: http://www.ssa.gov/ Medicare – Medicare is America’s major Federal health insurance program for people who are 65 or older and for some with disabilities who are under 65. It provides basic protection for the cost of health care. Two programs can help people who have low incomes receive benefits. Medicaid – Medicaid pays for some health care costs for America’s poorest people. More information about Medicaid and who is eligible for it is available at local welfare and medical assistance offices. Although there are certain Federal requirements, each State has its own rules and regulations for Medicaid. The Medicaid Clearinghouse contains links to information for individual states. BECOME A RESEARCH SUBJECT Many research programs for new meds and treatments will provide free treatment for participants. The downside of this is you run the risk of getting a placebo or an unproven treatment, but if you have nothing to lose take a look at Research Subjects Needed. This page currently lists several different research programs all around the US and Canada. FREE CLINICS If anyone knows of other free clinics around the country, please email me and I’ll add them to the list. Haight Ashbury Free Clinic- This free clinic in San Francisco provides services for general health care, HIV, homeless people, mental health care and substance abuse recovery. Locating Other Free Clinics – The National Free Clinic Directory and A Free Clinic: Starting Out (a manual on how to start free clinics) are published by The Free Clinic Foundation of America and the Bradley Free Clinic of Roanoke, Virginia. You can reach them at: Free Clinic Foundation of America 1240 Third Street, SW Roanoke, VA 24016 Phone (540) 344-8242 Fax (540) 342-0220 FURTHER RESOURCES For more information about paying for mental health care, contact: Knowledge Exchange Network (KEN) P.O. Box 42490 Washington, DC 20015 800-789-CMHS (2647) 800-790-CMHS (2647) (electronic bulletin board) http://www.mentalhealth.org/ National Alliance for the Mentally Ill (NAMI) 200 North Glebe Road, Suite 1015 Arlington, VA 22203-3754 voice: 703-524-7600 fax: 703-524-9094 http://www.nami.org/ National Empowerment Center 20 Ballard Road Lawrence, MA 01843 voice: 800-769-3728 fax: 508-681-6426 http://depression.about.com/cs/findadoc/a/freelowcosttx_2.htm ~*~Sit and daydream, and watch the changing color of the waves that break upon the idle seashore of the mind~*~  ~~Henry Wadsworth Longfellow, — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Even though this about depression, a lot of the info can also be used for anxiety disorders as well. Wal-mart Offers $4 Prescription Meds Wal-mart announced a plan yesterday that could be a big help for those without medical insurance, including seniors affected by the "doughnut hole" coverage gap in their Medicare Part D prescription drug plans. They will be making nearly 300 generic drugs available for $4 a prescription for up to a 30-day supply at commonly prescribed doses. Among the drugs available which could benefit depression and manic depression patients are Amitriptyline, Doxepin, Fluoxetine, Carbamazepine, Lithium Carbonate, Nortriptyline and Trazodone. Currently the program will only cover 65 Walmart, Neighborhood Market and Sam’s Club locations in the Tampa Bay, FL area, but plans exist to expand to the entire state of Florida by January 2007 and to extend to as many states as possible next year. $4 Generic Drug List:http://i.walmart.com/i/if/hmp/fusion/Floridagenericdruglist.pdf Participating Stores:http://i.walmart.com/i/if/hmp/fusion/Floridastorelist.pdf http://depression.about.com/b/a/257642.htm How to Get Free or Low-Cost Treatment for Depressionhttp://depression.about.com/cs/findadoc/a/freelowcosttx.htmhttp://dep… From Nancy Schimelpfening, Your Guide to Depression. Online Resources Perhaps the only thing worse than depression is having depression and not being able to afford treatment. I frequently get letters from those of you who are in just this predicament. I’ve collected here all of the free and low-cost resources and ideas that I have come across in the past couple of years. I will continue to add more as I find them. If you have a suggestion for something that I’ve overlooked please write to me at LOW COST MEDS Pill Splitting – An article in the September 1999 issue of Clinical Psychiatry News reports that you may be able to purchase a higher dose pill at a cost only slightly more than the dose you’re currently on and split them in half. In a presentation to the APA, it was reported that patients can save an average of 37% off their current medication costs by pill splitting. A list of the medications surveyed included popular antidepressants. FREE MEDS Needy Meds – This site is a bit difficult to navigate, but all the information you need to get your meds for free can be found by clicking the name of your drug in the list on the left side of the page. They are also trying to sell a book, but all the same information can be found on their web site for free. Appears to be frequently updated. The Medicine Program – If you do not have insurance and do not qualify for government programs you may qualify to enroll in a privately sponsored program. There is a $5.00 processing fee for each medication requested through this organization, but the medications themselves are free. Volunteers staff this organization and the processing fee covers their expenses. They are basically contacting the drug manufacturers on your behalf. You may also contact these companies directly using the information provided in the following link. Free Samples – Often pharmaceutical companies provide physicians with free samples. Ask your doctor is he/she has any samples on hand of your medication. I used to get all my Buspar this way. LOW COST TREATMENT Sliding Scale Fees – Some providers may have sliding-scale fees. Based on your income, the provider will reduce his or her fees. Negotiate a Lower Fee with Your Doctor – Other providers, if they are aware of your financial limitations, may be willing to negotiate a payment plan that you can afford or to lower their rates according to what your insurance plan pays. CommunityMental HealthCenters – Many communities have communitymentalhealthcenters (CMHCs). These centers offer a range ofmental healthtreatment and counseling services, usually at a reduced rate for low-income people. CMHCs generally require that you have a private insurance plan or be a recipient of public assistance. For more information about CommunityMental HealthCenters: National Council for Community Behavioral Health Care 12300 Twinbrook Parkway, Suite 320 Rockville, MD 20850 voice: 301-984-6200 fax: 301-881-7159http://www.nccbh.org/ Pastoral Counseling Programs – Your church or synagogue can put you in touch with a pastoral counseling program. Certified pastoral counselors, who are ministers in a recognized religious body, have advanced degrees in pastoral counseling, as well as professional counseling experience. Pastoral counseling is often provided on a sliding-scale fee. For more information about Pastoral Counseling Programs: American Association of Pastoral Counselors 9504-A Lee HighwayFairfax, VA 22031-2303 voice: 703-385-6967 fax: 703-352-7725http://www.aapc.org/ SELF-HELP AND SUPPORT GROUPS Another option is to join a self-help or support group. These groups give people a chance to talk about and work on their common problems-such as alcoholism, substance abuse, depression, family issues, and relationships. Self-help groups are generally free and can be found in most communities. You may also join an online support group right here at About. We have a support group meeting 24 hours a day in our chat room. For more information about Self-Help Groups: American Self-Help Clearinghouse Northwest Covenant Medical Center 25 Pocono Road Denville, NJ 07834-2995 voice: 201-625-9565 fax: 201-625-9565 http://mentalhelp.net/selfhelp/ NationalMental HealthSelf-Help Clearinghouse 1211 Chestnut Street, Suite 1000 Philadelphia, PA 19107 800-553-4KEYhttp://depression.about.com/cs/findadoc/a/freelowcosttx.htm More Resources PUBLIC ASSISTANCE People with severe mental illness may be eligible for several forms of public assistance, both to meet basic costs of living and to pay for health care. Such programs include Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and disability benefits. For information about Social Security, Medicare, and disability benefits call:Social Security Administration at 800-772-1213. SSA Web site:http://www.ssa.gov/ Medicare – Medicare is America’s major Federal health insurance program for people who are 65 or older and for some with disabilities who are under 65. It provides basic protection for the cost of health care. Two programs can help people who have low incomes receive benefits. Medicaid – Medicaid pays for some health care costs for America’s poorest people. More information about Medicaid and who is eligible for it is available at local welfare and medical assistance offices. Although there are certain Federal requirements, each State has its own rules and regulations for Medicaid. The Medicaid Clearinghouse contains links to information for individual states. BECOME A RESEARCH SUBJECT Many research programs for new meds and treatments will provide free treatment for participants. The downside of this is you run the risk of getting a placebo or an unproven treatment, but if you have nothing to lose take a look at Research Subjects Needed. This page currently lists several different research programs all around the US and Canada. FREE CLINICS If anyone knows of other free clinics around the country, please email me and I’ll add them to the list. Haight Ashbury Free Clinic- This free clinic in San Francisco provides services for general health care, HIV, homeless people,mental healthcare and substance abuse recovery. Locating Other Free Clinics – The National Free Clinic Directory and A Free Clinic: Starting Out (a manual on how to start free clinics) are published by The Free Clinic Foundation of America and the Bradley Free Clinic of Roanoke, Virginia. You can reach them at: Free Clinic Foundation of America 1240 Third Street, SW Roanoke, VA 24016 Phone (540) 344-8242 Fax (540) 342-0220 FURTHER RESOURCES For more information about paying formental healthcare, contact: Knowledge Exchange Network (KEN) P.O. Box 42490 Washington, DC 20015 800-789-CMHS (2647) 800-790-CMHS (2647) (electronic bulletin board)http://www.mentalhealth.org/ National Alliance for the Mentally Ill (NAMI) 200 North Glebe Road, Suite 1015 Arlington, VA 22203-3754 voice: 703-524-7600 fax: 703-524-9094http://www.nami.org/ National Empowerment Center 20 Ballard Road Lawrence, MA 01843 voice: 800-769-3728 fax: 508-681-6426 http://depression.about.com/cs/findadoc/a/freelowcosttx_2.htm "I had a stick of CareFree gum, but it didn’t work. I felt pretty good for a while, but as soon as the gum lost its flavor, I was back to pondering my mortality."   ~~ Mitch Hedberg — The charter is available at:http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

I don’t see anything about Northern Virginia Community College (located in Fairfax Virginia) on this list.  Do they do anything to help reintegrate mentally ill people back into the community? — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Even though this about depression, a lot of the info can also be used for anxiety disorders as well. Wal-mart Offers $4 Prescription Meds Wal-mart announced a plan yesterday that could be a big help for those without medical insurance, including seniors affected by the "doughnut hole" coverage gap in their Medicare Part D prescription drug plans. They will be making nearly 300 generic drugs available for $4 a prescription for up to a 30-day supply at commonly prescribed doses. Among the drugs available which could benefit depression and manic depression patients are Amitriptyline, Doxepin, Fluoxetine, Carbamazepine, Lithium Carbonate, Nortriptyline and Trazodone. Currently the program will only cover 65 Walmart, Neighborhood Market and Sam’s Club locations in the Tampa Bay, FL area, but plans exist to expand to the entire state of Florida by January 2007 and to extend to as many states as possible next year. $4 Generic Drug List: http://i.walmart.com/i/if/hmp/fusion/Floridagenericdruglist.pdf Participating Stores: http://i.walmart.com/i/if/hmp/fusion/Floridastorelist.pdf http://depression.about.com/b/a/257642.htm How to Get Free or Low-Cost Treatment for Depression http://depression.about.com/cs/findadoc/a/freelowcosttx.htm http://depression.about.com/cs/findadoc/a/freelowcosttx_2.htm From Nancy Schimelpfening,

Your Guide to Depression. Online Resources Perhaps the only thing worse than depression is having depression and not being able to afford treatment. I frequently get letters from those of you who are in just this predicament. I’ve collected here all of the free and low-cost resources and ideas that I have come across in the past couple of years. I will continue to add more as I find them. If you have a suggestion for something that I’ve overlooked please write to me at LOW COST MEDS Pill Splitting – An article in the September 1999 issue of Clinical Psychiatry News reports that you may be able to purchase a higher dose pill at a cost only slightly more than the dose you’re currently on and split them in half. In a presentation to the APA, it was reported that patients can save an average of 37% off their current medication costs by pill splitting. A list of the medications surveyed included popular antidepressants. FREE MEDS Needy Meds – This site is a bit difficult to navigate, but all the information you need to get your meds for free can be found by clicking the name of your drug in the list on the left side of the page. They are also trying to sell a book, but all the same information can be found on their web site for free. Appears to be frequently updated. The Medicine Program – If you do not have insurance and do not qualify for government programs you may qualify to enroll in a privately sponsored program. There is a $5.00 processing fee for each medication requested through this organization, but the medications themselves are free. Volunteers staff this organization and the processing fee covers their expenses. They are basically contacting the drug manufacturers on your behalf. You may also contact these companies directly using the information provided in the following link. Free Samples – Often pharmaceutical companies provide physicians with free samples. Ask your doctor is he/she has any samples on hand of your medication. I used to get all my Buspar this way. LOW COST TREATMENT Sliding Scale Fees – Some providers may have sliding-scale fees. Based on your income, the provider will reduce his or her fees. Negotiate a Lower Fee with Your Doctor – Other providers, if they are aware of your financial limitations, may be willing to negotiate a payment plan that you can afford or to lower their rates according to what your insurance plan pays. Community Mental Health Centers – Many communities have community mental health centers (CMHCs). These centers offer a range of mental health treatment and counseling services, usually at a reduced rate for low-income people. CMHCs generally require that you have a private insurance plan or be a recipient of public assistance. For more information about Community Mental Health Centers: National Council for Community Behavioral Health Care 12300 Twinbrook Parkway, Suite 320 Rockville, MD 20850 voice: 301-984-6200 fax: 301-881-7159 http://www.nccbh.org/ Pastoral Counseling Programs – Your church or synagogue can put you in touch with a pastoral counseling program. Certified pastoral counselors, who are ministers in a recognized religious body, have advanced degrees in pastoral counseling, as well as professional counseling experience. Pastoral counseling is often provided on a sliding-scale fee. For more information about Pastoral Counseling Programs: American Association of Pastoral Counselors 9504-A Lee Highway Fairfax, VA 22031-2303 voice: 703-385-6967 fax: 703-352-7725 http://www.aapc.org/ SELF-HELP AND SUPPORT GROUPS Another option is to join a self-help or support group. These groups give people a chance to talk about and work on their common problems-such as alcoholism, substance abuse, depression, family issues, and relationships. Self-help groups are generally free and can be found in most communities. You may also join an online support group right here at About. We have a support group meeting 24 hours a day in our chat room. For more information about Self-Help Groups: American Self-Help Clearinghouse Northwest Covenant Medical Center 25 Pocono Road Denville, NJ 07834-2995 voice: 201-625-9565 fax: 201-625-9565 http://mentalhelp.net/selfhelp/ National Mental Health Self-Help Clearinghouse 1211 Chestnut Street, Suite 1000 Philadelphia, PA 19107 800-553-4KEY http://depression.about.com/cs/findadoc/a/freelowcosttx.htm More Resources PUBLIC ASSISTANCE People with severe mental illness may be eligible for several forms of public assistance, both to meet basic costs of living and to pay for health care. Such programs include Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and disability benefits. For information about Social Security, Medicare, and disability benefits call:Social Security Administration at 800-772-1213. SSA Web site: http://www.ssa.gov/ Medicare – Medicare is America’s major Federal health insurance program for people who are 65 or older and for some with disabilities who are under 65. It provides basic protection for the cost of health care. Two programs can help people who have low incomes receive benefits. Medicaid – Medicaid pays for some health care costs for America’s poorest people. More information about Medicaid and who is eligible for it is available at local welfare and medical assistance offices. Although there are certain Federal requirements, each State has its own rules and regulations for Medicaid. The Medicaid Clearinghouse contains links to information for individual states. BECOME A RESEARCH SUBJECT Many research programs for new meds and treatments will provide free treatment for participants. The downside of this is you run the risk of getting a placebo or an unproven treatment, but if you have nothing to lose take a look at Research Subjects Needed. This page currently lists several different research programs all around the US and Canada. FREE CLINICS If anyone knows of other free clinics around the country, please email me and I’ll add them to the list. Haight Ashbury Free Clinic- This free clinic in San Francisco provides services for general health care, HIV, homeless people, mental health care and substance abuse recovery. Locating Other Free Clinics – The National Free Clinic Directory and A Free Clinic: Starting Out (a manual on how to start free clinics) are published by The Free Clinic Foundation of America and the Bradley Free Clinic of Roanoke, Virginia. You can reach them at: Free Clinic Foundation of America 1240 Third Street, SW Roanoke, VA 24016 Phone (540) 344-8242 Fax (540) 342-0220 FURTHER RESOURCES For more information about paying for mental health care, contact: Knowledge Exchange Network (KEN) P.O. Box 42490 Washington, DC 20015 800-789-CMHS (2647) 800-790-CMHS (2647) (electronic bulletin board) http://www.mentalhealth.org/ National Alliance for the Mentally Ill (NAMI) 200 North Glebe Road, Suite 1015 Arlington, VA 22203-3754 voice: 703-524-7600 fax: 703-524-9094 http://www.nami.org/ National Empowerment Center 20 Ballard Road Lawrence, MA 01843 voice: 800-769-3728 fax: 508-681-6426 http://depression.about.com/cs/findadoc/a/freelowcosttx_2.htm "I had a stick of CareFree gum, but it didn’t work. I felt pretty good for a while, but as soon as the gum lost its flavor, I was back to pondering my mortality."

Even though this about depression, a lot of the info can also be used for anxiety disorders as well. How to Get Free or Low-Cost Treatment for Depression http://depression.about.com/cs/findadoc/a/freelowcosttx.htm http://depression.about.com/cs/findadoc/a/freelowcosttx_2.htm From Nancy Schimelpfening,

Your Guide to Depression. Online Resources Perhaps the only thing worse than depression is having depression and not being able to afford treatment. I frequently get letters from those of you who are in just this predicament. I’ve collected here all of the free and low-cost resources and ideas that I have come across in the past couple of years. I will continue to add more as I find them. If you have a suggestion for something that I’ve overlooked please write to me at LOW COST MEDS Pill Splitting – An article in the September 1999 issue of Clinical Psychiatry News reports that you may be able to purchase a higher dose pill at a cost only slightly more than the dose you’re currently on and split them in half. In a presentation to the APA, it was reported that patients can save an average of 37% off their current medication costs by pill splitting. A list of the medications surveyed included popular antidepressants. FREE MEDS Needy Meds – This site is a bit difficult to navigate, but all the information you need to get your meds for free can be found by clicking the name of your drug in the list on the left side of the page. They are also trying to sell a book, but all the same information can be found on their web site for free. Appears to be frequently updated. The Medicine Program – If you do not have insurance and do not qualify for government programs you may qualify to enroll in a privately sponsored program. There is a $5.00 processing fee for each medication requested through this organization, but the medications themselves are free. Volunteers staff this organization and the processing fee covers their expenses. They are basically contacting the drug manufacturers on your behalf. You may also contact these companies directly using the information provided in the following link. Free Samples – Often pharmaceutical companies provide physicians with free samples. Ask your doctor is he/she has any samples on hand of your medication. I used to get all my Buspar this way. LOW COST TREATMENT Sliding Scale Fees – Some providers may have sliding-scale fees. Based on your income, the provider will reduce his or her fees. Negotiate a Lower Fee with Your Doctor – Other providers, if they are aware of your financial limitations, may be willing to negotiate a payment plan that you can afford or to lower their rates according to what your insurance plan pays. Community Mental Health Centers – Many communities have community mental health centers (CMHCs). These centers offer a range of mental health treatment and counseling services, usually at a reduced rate for low-income people. CMHCs generally require that you have a private insurance plan or be a recipient of public assistance. For more information about Community Mental Health Centers: National Council for Community Behavioral Health Care 12300 Twinbrook Parkway, Suite 320 Rockville, MD 20850 voice: 301-984-6200 fax: 301-881-7159 http://www.nccbh.org/ Pastoral Counseling Programs – Your church or synagogue can put you in touch with a pastoral counseling program. Certified pastoral counselors, who are ministers in a recognized religious body, have advanced degrees in pastoral counseling, as well as professional counseling experience. Pastoral counseling is often provided on a sliding-scale fee. For more information about Pastoral Counseling Programs: American Association of Pastoral Counselors 9504-A Lee Highway Fairfax, VA 22031-2303 voice: 703-385-6967 fax: 703-352-7725 http://www.aapc.org/ SELF-HELP AND SUPPORT GROUPS Another option is to join a self-help or support group. These groups give people a chance to talk about and work on their common problems-such as alcoholism, substance abuse, depression, family issues, and relationships. Self-help groups are generally free and can be found in most communities. You may also join an online support group right here at About. We have a support group meeting 24 hours a day in our chat room. For more information about Self-Help Groups: American Self-Help Clearinghouse Northwest Covenant Medical Center 25 Pocono Road Denville, NJ 07834-2995 voice: 201-625-9565 fax: 201-625-9565 http://mentalhelp.net/selfhelp/ National Mental Health Self-Help Clearinghouse 1211 Chestnut Street, Suite 1000 Philadelphia, PA 19107 800-553-4KEY http://depression.about.com/cs/findadoc/a/freelowcosttx.htm More Resources PUBLIC ASSISTANCE People with severe mental illness may be eligible for several forms of public assistance, both to meet basic costs of living and to pay for health care. Such programs include Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and disability benefits. For information about Social Security, Medicare, and disability benefits call:Social Security Administration at 800-772-1213. SSA Web site: http://www.ssa.gov/ Medicare – Medicare is America’s major Federal health insurance program for people who are 65 or older and for some with disabilities who are under 65. It provides basic protection for the cost of health care. Two programs can help people who have low incomes receive benefits. Medicaid – Medicaid pays for some health care costs for America’s poorest people. More information about Medicaid and who is eligible for it is available at local welfare and medical assistance offices. Although there are certain Federal requirements, each State has its own rules and regulations for Medicaid. The Medicaid Clearinghouse contains links to information for individual states. BECOME A RESEARCH SUBJECT Many research programs for new meds and treatments will provide free treatment for participants. The downside of this is you run the risk of getting a placebo or an unproven treatment, but if you have nothing to lose take a look at Research Subjects Needed. This page currently lists several different research programs all around the US and Canada. FREE CLINICS If anyone knows of other free clinics around the country, please email me and I’ll add them to the list. Haight Ashbury Free Clinic- This free clinic in San Francisco provides services for general health care, HIV, homeless people, mental health care and substance abuse recovery. Locating Other Free Clinics – The National Free Clinic Directory and A Free Clinic: Starting Out (a manual on how to start free clinics) are published by The Free Clinic Foundation of America and the Bradley Free Clinic of Roanoke, Virginia. You can reach them at: Free Clinic Foundation of America 1240 Third Street, SW Roanoke, VA 24016 Phone (540) 344-8242 Fax (540) 342-0220 FURTHER RESOURCES For more information about paying for mental health care, contact: Knowledge Exchange Network (KEN) P.O. Box 42490 Washington, DC 20015 800-789-CMHS (2647) 800-790-CMHS (2647) (electronic bulletin board) http://www.mentalhealth.org/ National Alliance for the Mentally Ill (NAMI) 200 North Glebe Road, Suite 1015 Arlington, VA 22203-3754 voice: 703-524-7600 fax: 703-524-9094 http://www.nami.org/ National Empowerment Center 20 Ballard Road Lawrence, MA 01843 voice: 800-769-3728 fax: 508-681-6426 http://depression.about.com/cs/findadoc/a/freelowcosttx_2.htm Jackie ~*~Put on Your Big Girl Panties and Deal with it~*~ — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

::Thanks for the info Jackie. You are very welcome, Doug Jackie ~*~Put on Your Big Girl Panties and Deal with it~*~ — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Thanks for the info Jackie. — Doug

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Even though this about depression, a lot of the info can also be used for anxiety disorders as well. How to Get Free or Low-Cost Treatment for Depression http://depression.about.com/cs/findadoc/a/freelowcosttx.htm http://depression.about.com/cs/findadoc/a/freelowcosttx_2.htm From Nancy Schimelpfening, Your Guide to Depression. Online Resources Perhaps the only thing worse than depression is having depression and not being able to afford treatment. I frequently get letters from those of you who are in just this predicament. I’ve collected here all of the free and low-cost resources and ideas that I have come across in the past couple of years. I will continue to add more as I find them. If you have a suggestion for something that I’ve overlooked please write to me at LOW COST MEDS Pill Splitting – An article in the September 1999 issue of Clinical Psychiatry News reports that you may be able to purchase a higher dose pill at a cost only slightly more than the dose you’re currently on and split them in half. In a presentation to the APA, it was reported that patients can save an average of 37% off their current medication costs by pill splitting. A list of the medications surveyed included popular antidepressants. FREE MEDS Needy Meds – This site is a bit difficult to navigate, but all the information you need to get your meds for free can be found by clicking the name of your drug in the list on the left side of the page. They are also trying to sell a book, but all the same information can be found on their web site for free. Appears to be frequently updated. The Medicine Program – If you do not have insurance and do not qualify for government programs you may qualify to enroll in a privately sponsored program. There is a $5.00 processing fee for each medication requested through this organization, but the medications themselves are free. Volunteers staff this organization and the processing fee covers their expenses. They are basically contacting the drug manufacturers on your behalf. You may also contact these companies directly using the information provided in the following link. Free Samples – Often pharmaceutical companies provide physicians with free samples. Ask your doctor is he/she has any samples on hand of your medication. I used to get all my Buspar this way. LOW COST TREATMENT Sliding Scale Fees – Some providers may have sliding-scale fees. Based on your income, the provider will reduce his or her fees. Negotiate a Lower Fee with Your Doctor – Other providers, if they are aware of your financial limitations, may be willing to negotiate a payment plan that you can afford or to lower their rates according to what your insurance plan pays. Community Mental Health Centers – Many communities have community mental health centers (CMHCs). These centers offer a range of mental health treatment and counseling services, usually at a reduced rate for low-income people. CMHCs generally require that you have a private insurance plan or be a recipient of public assistance. For more information about Community Mental Health Centers: National Council for Community Behavioral Health Care 12300 Twinbrook Parkway, Suite 320 Rockville, MD 20850 voice: 301-984-6200 fax: 301-881-7159 http://www.nccbh.org/ Pastoral Counseling Programs – Your church or synagogue can put you in touch with a pastoral counseling program. Certified pastoral counselors, who are ministers in a recognized religious body, have advanced degrees in pastoral counseling, as well as professional counseling experience. Pastoral counseling is often provided on a sliding-scale fee. For more information about Pastoral Counseling Programs: American Association of Pastoral Counselors 9504-A Lee Highway Fairfax, VA 22031-2303 voice: 703-385-6967 fax: 703-352-7725 http://www.aapc.org/ SELF-HELP AND SUPPORT GROUPS Another option is to join a self-help or support group. These groups give people a chance to talk about and work on their common problems-such as alcoholism, substance abuse, depression, family issues, and relationships. Self-help groups are generally free and can be found in most communities. You may also join an online support group right here at About. We have a support group meeting 24 hours a day in our chat room. For more information about Self-Help Groups: American Self-Help Clearinghouse Northwest Covenant Medical Center 25 Pocono Road Denville, NJ 07834-2995 voice: 201-625-9565 fax: 201-625-9565 http://mentalhelp.net/selfhelp/ National Mental Health Self-Help Clearinghouse 1211 Chestnut Street, Suite 1000 Philadelphia, PA 19107 800-553-4KEY http://depression.about.com/cs/findadoc/a/freelowcosttx.htm More Resources PUBLIC ASSISTANCE People with severe mental illness may be eligible for several forms of public assistance, both to meet basic costs of living and to pay for health care. Such programs include Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and disability benefits. For information about Social Security, Medicare, and disability benefits call:Social Security Administration at 800-772-1213. SSA Web site: http://www.ssa.gov/ Medicare – Medicare is America’s major Federal health insurance program for people who are 65 or older and for some with disabilities who are under 65. It provides basic protection for the cost of health care. Two programs can help people who have low incomes receive benefits. Medicaid – Medicaid pays for some health care costs for America’s poorest people. More information about Medicaid and who is eligible for it is available at local welfare and medical assistance offices. Although there are certain Federal requirements, each State has its own rules and regulations for Medicaid. The Medicaid Clearinghouse contains links to information for individual states. BECOME A RESEARCH SUBJECT Many research programs for new meds and treatments will provide free treatment for participants. The downside of this is you run the risk of getting a placebo or an unproven treatment, but if you have nothing to lose take a look at Research Subjects Needed. This page currently lists several different research programs all around the US and Canada. FREE CLINICS If anyone knows of other free clinics around the country, please email me and I’ll add them to the list. Haight Ashbury Free Clinic- This free clinic in San Francisco provides services for general health care, HIV, homeless people, mental health care and substance abuse recovery. Locating Other Free Clinics – The National Free Clinic Directory and A Free Clinic: Starting Out (a manual on how to start free clinics) are published by The Free Clinic Foundation of America and the Bradley Free Clinic of Roanoke, Virginia. You can reach them at: Free Clinic Foundation of America 1240 Third Street, SW Roanoke, VA 24016 Phone (540) 344-8242 Fax (540) 342-0220 FURTHER RESOURCES For more information about paying for mental health care, contact: Knowledge Exchange Network (KEN) P.O. Box 42490 Washington, DC 20015 800-789-CMHS (2647) 800-790-CMHS (2647) (electronic bulletin board) http://www.mentalhealth.org/ National Alliance for the Mentally Ill (NAMI) 200 North Glebe Road, Suite 1015 Arlington, VA 22203-3754 voice: 703-524-7600 fax: 703-524-9094 http://www.nami.org/ National Empowerment Center 20 Ballard Road Lawrence, MA 01843 voice: 800-769-3728 fax: 508-681-6426 http://depression.about.com/cs/findadoc/a/freelowcosttx_2.htm Jackie ~*~Put on Your Big Girl Panties and Deal with it~*~ — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hyerdahl wrote: > Sure did.  More women than ever are postponing marriage and childbirth > and where are those women?  More women than men are now entering > college and almost all young women are working outside the home for > money.  That’s what I call service!

I’ve seen this take place for upper-class women. I do not believe this to be a result of feminism; I believe this to be a result of education. Given the experience of previous generations, I completely support this. Lower classes are in another place. As they always are. > There’s no longer a need for feminists to ‘agitate’.  They have made > their points already and now have equal rights by law.

Equal rights are fine and good. What you do with them defines you. Seeing that you’ve been using your equal rights to conduct inquisitions and attack healthy heterosexuality, I’d say you’ve misused what you’ve been given. A typical problem. Blacks did stupid things with their rights when they gained them, too. > Nonsense!  Feminism, being about equal rights for women, has nothing to > do with men.  However, feminists can clearly identify a lying > hypocritical, sexist pig when they see one, and the ring of patriarchy > when they hear it spouted.

If you think these things about me (whether you be man or woman), you are so full of manure that they’ll have to use it for fertilizer. If you see me as that, then girl you’ve got another thing coming. You haven’t seen a true sexist pig. BTW, the dudes on alt.angst who suck up to your kind of person and mouth your ideology are guilty of real crimes against women, from near-murder in domestic disputes to pedophilia. They use your beliefs to gain women’s trust and then do horrible things to them. People like you are easy to manipulate. And real manipulators do. > Which meant that they spurned the affections of those who had any > chance to be good to them, and went with those who were to treat them > like trash. > How does that translate?  If a woman refuses one man that does not > guarantee that another will treat them badly.  Just because a woman > refuses YOU doesn’t mean another man isn’t better for her.  You have a > total lack of logic going on.

No, I’m reasoning clearly. If you believe that men are evil or have evil motives, then you will distrust those who approach you in a loving manner & go with those who approach you in a manner you expect of man (i.e. hateful and malicous). Who, pursuant your belief about men, will treat you in the manner that you expect of him. > Hating patriarchy doesn’t result in hating good men or women.

There you’ve put it. GOOD men or women. I likewise like GOOD men and women. I refuse to like the next person for being a woman, any more than I refuse to like the next person for being a man. Want equality? Here, I give you equality. I give you judgment based on who you are. You are a lost little puppy who bites those who are good for her and cuddles up to those who want to kill her. That’s what you wanted, right? Don’t look so sad. Ilya Shambat.

Response:

I have never seen a single poster from alt.abuse.recovery seek you out or high five one of your posts.  Stop sending this self-impressed, pretentious drivel over here. ~*~ I am incredibly silly, so I emphasize you.  My tropical liaison won’t improve before I say it ~*~

Response:

On 30 Jun 2005 16:09:20 -0700, ibshambat2…@hotmail.com wrote: >Hyerdahl wrote: >> Sure did.  More women than ever are postponing marriage and childbirth >> and where are those women?  More women than men are now entering >> college and almost all young women are working outside the home for >> money.  That’s what I call service! >I’ve seen this take place for upper-class women.

Translation: chyx who have a complete set of correlllware. >I do not believe this >to be a result of feminism; I believe this to be a result of education. >Given the experience of previous generations, I completely support >this.

Yawn. >Lower classes are in another place. As they always are.

And where is your place, Ilya? Wait wait, that was a rhetorical question. You exist in a delusional state. There is now upper or lower classes. There is only those Ilya tries to emulate and those he feels he is superior in every way. It’s all fairly amusing on a slow day. >> There’s no longer a need for feminists to ‘agitate’.  They have made >> their points already and now have equal rights by law. >Equal rights are fine and good. What you do with them defines you.

MAsturbating in a public library defines you how? >Seeing that you’ve been using your equal rights to conduct inquisitions >and attack healthy heterosexuality, I’d say you’ve misused what you’ve >been given.

Ilya, in sexual mattes you have no right to comment. >A typical problem. Blacks did stupid things with their rights when they >gained them, too.

More info please! >> Nonsense!  Feminism, being about equal rights for women, has nothing to >> do with men.  However, feminists can clearly identify a lying >> hypocritical, sexist pig when they see one, and the ring of patriarchy >> when they hear it spouted. >If you think these things about me (whether you be man or woman), you >are so full of manure that they’ll have to use it for fertilizer.

Interesting (though sad) tactic. >If you see me as that, then girl you’ve got another thing coming. You >haven’t seen a true sexist pig.

She’d have to actually meet you face to face first? <Ilya liedeology> >BTW, the dudes on alt.angst who suck up to your kind of person and >mouth your ideology are guilty of real crimes against women, from >near-murder in domestic disputes to pedophilia. They use your beliefs >to gain women’s trust and then do horrible things to them.

</Ilya liedeology> >People like you are easy to manipulate. And real manipulators do.

LIke you, you mean? >> Which meant that they spurned the affections of those who had any >> chance to be good to them, and went with those who were to treat them >> like trash. >> How does that translate?  If a woman refuses one man that does not >> guarantee that another will treat them badly.  Just because a woman >> refuses YOU doesn’t mean another man isn’t better for her.  You have a >> total lack of logic going on. >No, I’m reasoning clearly.

You aren’t capable of reasoning. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Liz wrote: > I have never seen a single poster from alt.abuse.recovery seek you out > or high five one of your posts.  Stop sending this self-impressed, > pretentious drivel over here.

la la la la la your point?

Response:

On 2 Jul 2005 17:06:21 -0700, ilya_shambat2…@yahoo.com wrote: >Liz wrote: >> I have never seen a single poster from alt.abuse.recovery seek you out >> or high five one of your posts.  Stop sending this self-impressed, >> pretentious drivel over here. >la la la la la >your point?

Her point is clear.

Response:

On 21 Jun 2005 15:44:12 -0700, ilya_shambat2…@yahoo.com wrote: Cut the stuff about marriage because Ilya has no experience in this matter and is, as usual, talking shit. >In case of parents attacking the child’s character, the correct >response by the child is, "I did not consciously choose my character. >Perhaps you were expecting someone else. But you got me, and now you >have to live with me.

Does this work with your mother? >Let’s have some honesty here, both for men and for women. I’ve had >feminazi trash call me a misogynist and soc.men morons call me a male >feminist. Both are engaged in shadow projection, and for as long as >both do that they are incapable of honesty.

Ilya, you can’t even be honest with yourself. >You haven’t seen a bastard (well, unless you’ve been with >Cujo or Bob or David).

You have it wrong. I’m an evil wizard. Remember?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hyerdahl wrote: > Dolores wrote: >>Logique wrote: >>>The correct response for a woman at the receiving end of this is: "If >>>you don’t like me, then why don’t you divorce me and get another wife? >>>Come on, be a man. Take initiative and find someone appropriate for >>>you. You wooed me. You wanted me. If I’m not what you wanted, you have >>>no one to blame but yourself." >>>———————— >>>That is not the way I would look at it.  Lets say using the standard >>>bell curve and on a scale of 1 to 10 assigning half the people as fives >>>and sixes would give each increment slightly over .6 Standard >>>Derivation.  So, only

From Front Page Magazine’s Gail Penniman: The first step in any successful recovery program, such as Alcoholics Anonymous or Narcotics Anonymous, is to admit that there is a problem. For a leftist, then, stepping out of denial is the beginning of a journey toward clearer thinking and political sanity. I approach this topic with only a hint of humor, because I myself am a recovered leftist, with over 25 years of sobriety. Was I drunk on left-wing propaganda? Yes, and I became a user at a very tender age – as a child, in fact, in the home of my parents, who schooled me in the ways of communism and socialism. I believe this topic is extremely important at this juncture, because the far left is finding itself on the wrong side of history yet again and many of its members are lost at sea. I try to imagine myself, had I not awakened to the wrongness of my ideology, trying to survive both the re-election of George W. Bush and the successful Iraqi election. I would be beside myself with anger and disappointment. My index fingers would be in utter fatigue from non-stop pointing to assign blame. I might even threaten to move out of the country, as my brother and his wife are doing! I feel sad for leftists because they are stuck in their addiction. Strong wording? I think not, because I was there. Leftist ideology is a powerful and cunning potion, and if it gets into the mind at a young enough age, it can be extremely difficult to kick. Let me explain. I was brought up in the 1950s and ’60s in a suburb of New York City by two World War II veterans whose own parents were immigrants from Eastern Europe. My mother’s father took her to Communist Party meetings when she was a youngster, and my parents attended camps in upstate New York where young "reds" congregated, and where they met. As a child I read the works of Howard Fast and the periodical entitled The National Guardian. By the age of twelve, I was completely indoctrinated into the Communist mind-set and openly debated my seventh-grade social studies teacher on U.S. policy during the Cuban Missile Crisis. I was convinced of the evils of capitalism and believed that if the West would just not interfere, the Soviet Union would become a workers’ paradise (an old rant still mouthed today by many, including my mother and my son’s college history professor). My mother took me to various demonstrations before I left for college, at which time I involved myself in activist work against the Vietnam War, to my everlasting shame. There is no way for a "cradle" conservative to imagine the pain that a recovering leftist goes through when the veil is finally lifted. The second step in official 12-step programs is belief in a higher power, believing that your higher power can restore you. In recovering from leftist thinking, this step is not a requirement, but for me it was essential. In fact, during my 30th year I experienced a spiritual awakening that initiated many changes in values, which in turn brought me to my first conservative action step: voting for Ronald Reagan in 1980. To borrow Michael Medved’s term, I had become a "theo-con." Belief in a higher power is not always the starting place for a leftist in recovery. For some, it is intellectual honesty. Most recently, the Iraqi election came under attack from the far left in the United States and abroad. British Prime Minister Tony Blair rightly opined that anyone believing in liberty and self-rule could not possibly oppose the election. But leftists were able to do so because of intellectual dishonesty and their belief in ends-justify-the-means politics. Since a successful election in Iraq means a victory for the hated Bush and a vindication of the military, the left must oppose it. But in opposing Iraqi self-rule, the left must abandon one of its core positions: freedom from tyranny for the oppressed. Those on the left cannot have it both ways, and in continually trying to do so, they expose themselves as the intellectually bankrupt people they really are. Leftists ready to recover must use what recovering alcoholics call rigorous honesty to rid themselves of the habit of "dual think." The fourth step in AA is a fearless moral inventory, and the folks on the far left who dare to take a fearless intellectual inventory will realize that their dual-think positions are untenable. It can be frightening for a person to walk away from a lifetime of strongly held beliefs and into new ways of thinking. Family and close friends may misunderstand and even reject you. This happens. It is similar in many respects to what happens to individuals who leave a cult; they find themselves ostracized, ridiculed or marginalized. It is best not to engage in too many political discussions until you are sure of what you now stand for, how to defend your new positions, and who you can trust. Reading magazine articles and books to develop a knowledge base is essential. I was in recovery for over 20 years when I read David Horowitz’s "Radical Son," which documents his life journey from "red diaper baby" to leftist activist to highly regarded conservative scholar. It was not until I read this book that I realized that I was not alone in my "conversion" and how deeply angry I was at having been so brainwashed as a child. I now regard the politicizing of young children as a form of child abuse. This realization enabled me to deal with my anger and to begin to grow beyond it. The 12th step in the AA program is to carry the message of recovery to others. It is a marvelous step because in doing so, you cement the fact that you have finally arrived at some place of clarity and are strong enough to spread the message. To all those whose beliefs have been shaken by recent events, to all those whose ideological houses have been built on sand: Take heart, because there is hope if you will bravely admit that you were in the wrong and move to the right. As Dennis Prager says, it is okay to be wrong; it is not okay to stay that way.

Response:

Thanks, but some folks need to be bored to death just before bedtime to help konk them out. 7:39AM is way too early to be posting sappy insipid lemming drone monologue for dayworkers. Snore….

From Front Page Magazine’s Gail Penniman: The first step in any successful recovery

program, such as Alcoholics Anonymous or Narcotics Anonymous, is to admit

that there is a problem. For a leftist, then, stepping out of denial is the

beginning of a journey toward clearer thinking and political sanity. I

approach this topic with only a hint of humor, because I myself am a recovered

leftist, with over 25 years of sobriety. Was I drunk on left-wing

propaganda? Yes, and I became a user at a very tender age – as a child, in fact, in

the home of my parents, who schooled me in the ways of communism and socialism. I believe this topic is extremely important at

this juncture, because the far left is finding itself on the wrong side of

history yet again and many of its members are lost at sea. I try to imagine

myself, had I not awakened to the wrongness of my ideology, trying to

survive both the re-election of George W. Bush and the successful Iraqi

election. I would be beside myself with anger and disappointment. My index fingers

would be in utter fatigue from non-stop pointing to assign blame. I might

even threaten to move out of the country, as my brother and his wife are doing! I feel sad for leftists because they are stuck

in their addiction. Strong wording? I think not, because I was there.

Leftist ideology is a powerful and cunning potion, and if it gets into the mind

at a young enough age, it can be extremely difficult to kick. Let me explain. I was brought up in the 1950s and ’60s in a

suburb of New York City by two World War II veterans whose own parents were

immigrants from Eastern Europe. My mother’s father took her to Communist Party

meetings when she was a youngster, and my parents attended camps in

upstate New York where young "reds" congregated, and where they met. As a

child I read the works of Howard Fast and the periodical entitled The

National Guardian. By the age of twelve, I was completely indoctrinated into the

Communist mind-set and openly debated my seventh-grade social studies

teacher on U.S. policy during the Cuban Missile Crisis. I was convinced of the evils of capitalism and

believed that if the West would just not interfere, the Soviet Union would

become a workers’ paradise (an old rant still mouthed today by many,

including my mother and my son’s college history professor). My mother took me to

various demonstrations before I left for college, at which time I

involved myself in activist work against the Vietnam War, to my everlasting shame. There is no way for a "cradle" conservative to

imagine the pain that a recovering leftist goes through when the veil is

finally lifted. The second step in official 12-step programs is belief in a

higher power, believing that your higher power can restore you. In

recovering from leftist thinking, this step is not a requirement, but for me it

was essential. In fact, during my 30th year I experienced a spiritual awakening

that initiated many changes in values, which in turn brought me to my first

conservative action step: voting for Ronald Reagan in 1980. To borrow

Michael Medved’s term, I had become a "theo-con." Belief in a higher power is not always the

starting place for a leftist in recovery. For some, it is intellectual honesty.

Most recently, the Iraqi election came under attack from the far left in

the United States and abroad. British Prime Minister Tony Blair

rightly opined that anyone believing in liberty and self-rule could not

possibly oppose the election. But leftists were able to do so because of

intellectual dishonesty and their belief in ends-justify-the-means politics. Since

a successful election in Iraq means a victory for the hated Bush and a

vindication of the military, the left must oppose it. But in opposing Iraqi self-rule, the left must

abandon one of its core positions: freedom from tyranny for the

oppressed. Those on the left cannot have it both ways, and in continually trying to do so, they expose themselves as the intellectually bankrupt people

they really are. Leftists ready to recover must use what recovering

alcoholics call rigorous honesty to rid themselves of the habit of "dual think."

The fourth step in AA is a fearless moral inventory, and the folks on the

far left who dare to take a fearless intellectual inventory will realize

that their dual-think positions are untenable. It can be frightening for a person to walk away

from a lifetime of strongly held beliefs and into new ways of thinking.

Family and close friends may misunderstand and even reject you. This happens.

It is similar in many respects to what happens to individuals who

leave a cult; they find themselves ostracized, ridiculed or

marginalized. It is best not to engage in too many political discussions until you are

sure of what you now stand for, how to defend your new positions, and who

you can trust. Reading magazine articles and books to develop a

knowledge base is essential. I was in recovery for over 20 years when I read

David Horowitz’s "Radical Son," which documents his life journey from "red

diaper baby" to leftist activist to highly regarded conservative

scholar. It was not until I read this book that I realized that I was not alone

in my "conversion" and how deeply angry I was at having been so brainwashed

as a child. I now regard the politicizing of young children as a form of child abuse. This realization enabled me to deal with my anger and

to begin to grow beyond it. The 12th step in the AA program is to carry the

message of recovery to others. It is a marvelous step because in doing

so, you cement the fact that you have finally arrived at some place of

clarity and are strong enough to spread the message. To all those whose beliefs

have been shaken by recent events, to all those whose ideological houses

have been built on sand: Take heart, because there is hope if you will bravely

admit that you were in the wrong and move to the right. As Dennis Prager

says, it is okay to be wrong; – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – it is not okay to stay that way.

Response:

<shit ROFLMAO! What a load of hooey. Bob

Response:

    amazing what .$ s/left/right/g  yields: The first step in any successful recovery program, such as Alcoholics Anonymous or Narcotics Anonymous, is to admit that there is a problem. For a rightist, then, stepping out of denial is the beginning of a journey toward clearer thinking and political sanity. I approach this topic with only a hint of humor, because I myself am a recovered rightist, with over 25 years of sobriety. Was I drunk on right-wing propaganda? Yes, and I became a user at a very tender age – as a child, in fact, in the home of my parents, who schooled me in the ways of communism and socialism. I believe this topic is extremely important at this juncture, because the far right is finding itself on the wrong side of history yet again and many of its members are lost at sea. I try to imagine myself, had I not awakened to the wrongness of my ideology, trying to survive both the re-election of George W. Bush and the successful Iraqi election. I would be beside myself with anger and disappointment. My index fingers would be in utter fatigue from non-stop pointing to assign blame. I might even threaten to move out of the country, as my brother and his wife are doing! I feel sad for rightists because they are stuck in their addiction. Strong wording? I think not, because I was there. blah blah blah …..

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -S.Taylor wrote: > On Fri, 04 Feb 2005 15:38:04 GMT, Tracey <rbranch…@aol.com> wrote: > What a typcial feminist! > When a man dares to suggest that women do, in fact, lie about allegations, he is told he > is not welcome. >>S.Taylor wrote: >>>Members of this group are not likely to believe the typical "help me, my husband is >>>abusive" call, as too many women have made false allegations. >>I think you’re in the wrong group then.

Bone up on your reading comprehension, would you? Tracey

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Tracey wrote: > S.Taylor wrote: >> On Fri, 04 Feb 2005 15:38:04 GMT, Tracey <rbranch…@aol.com> wrote: >> What a typcial feminist! >> When a man dares to suggest that women do, in fact, lie about allegations, >> he is told he is not welcome. >>> S.Taylor wrote: >>>> Members of this group are not likely to believe the typical "help me, my >>>> husband is abusive" call, as too many women have made false allegations. >>> I think you’re in the wrong group then. > Bone up on your reading comprehension, would you? > Tracey

WHAT reading comprehension?

Response:

So? "S.Taylor" <STaylor938…@Hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:80h601dnhh2an8jg9jf7f63nm015ff6fqe@4ax.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Members of this group are not likely to believe the typical "help me, my husband is > abusive" call, as too many women have made false allegations. > On 3 Feb 2005 14:50:33 -0800, "DaKitty" <conniek…@yahoo.com> wrote: > >Here, a friend of mine gave me this, for you, to get you started: > >http://www.casac.ca/avcentres/women_centres.htm#pq > >http://www.womenaware.ca/index1.htm > >http://www.altmtl.ca/gender3.html > >Elise wrote: > >> I live in Quebec,Canada. > >> Here there is no place to go, for help around, were I live. > >> What I am trying to explain is that I don’t have a will to defend > >> myself anymore.I feel that there is no solution. > >> He knows  what to do or say to get me to change my mind > >> each time. > >> Elise

Response:

"S.Taylor" <STaylor938…@Hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:mqu701l6u79mrilb2ckseec04dpvc96mf0@4ax.com… > All of this is directly related to the appearance of feminism.3

Ah, you’re one of those! I understand.

Response:

"Bill in Co." <surly02curmudg…@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:nTSMd.400$mG6.358@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net… > Somebody needs to help this gal!   This is horrible – what is happening to > her.   Can’t anybody do anything for Elise?

I think Elise can help Elise.

Response:

Joy wrote: > "Bill in Co." <surly02curmudg…@earthlink.net> wrote in message > news:nTSMd.400$mG6.358@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net… >> Somebody needs to help this gal!   This is horrible – what is happening to >> her.   Can’t anybody do anything for Elise? > I think Elise can help Elise.

But she’s not.

Response:

"Elise" <norr…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:yiRMd.4484$lw4.937677@news20.bellglobal.com… > Thank you all for the great support you gave me. > First I have to say that my life is not in danger.

That’s what I used to think. In a small sense, that is true, after a while we learn how to appease the abuser. > It might be if I leave,you know the type to go crazy after you

leave,maybe? I wondered that about my ex… > He his gone to see his psychologist this afternoon. > I have a whole two hours for me ,alone. > I been married to him now for 37 years,I feel like a very well trained > monkey.

I’m sorry > I know that some of you will think that I am stupid,but to the contrary > intellectual I am very intelligent,emotional I am really not so bright.

It’s hard to learn he emotional stuff, especially if you haven’t had good parental role models… > I was very well trained by a father that used to beat me,an then I married > young > to a man that end up being like him. > He did not show his temper and be possessive before we got married. > At first it felt to me like caring  I craved affection so much. > He was not always angry to.

I hear ya! > With him what is bad to his that everything his someone else’s fault. > He never admit making mistakes.I am very understanding and  caring. > Way to much,for going through so many years of this. > But you see it is one hour ,one day one year at a time. > Now at the age I am ,I can’t take it anymore,plus heath problems. > As you can see I am trying to convince myself to leave.

Yes, and that’s a good thing. However hard and impossible it seems, it’s a good thing. It’ll take you a little bit to develop some ties and friends and support system so you can leave without feeling like you’re jumping off a cliff. > I feel paralyzed ,like I can’t do the next step. > There is also being scarred of being alone. > I was isolated ,and lost all my friends when I was young > and could not makes others.

Boy, I know what yu’re talking about there too. > He would try to get all the attention on him and if this did not work he > would > find an excuse to get angry,so my friends got scared and all disappeared.

Yeap! > Just to put that in words and know that I am not completely alone in the > world > his already a step in the right direction. > I might not be ready to leave today but I know I will if his therapy > does not work.

You’ll get there, like yu said, you;re intelligent, you’ll find a way to learn about feelings too, It’s possible! > Sorry for posting such a long post,I need to talk to someone so much. > Thank you, > All your answers were great,except for S.Taylor (Taylor,that was the name of > is mistress), > but I know about what newsgroups . > DaKitty ,yes I am French Canadian,and your offer to have your firnd in > Ottawa help > touch me ,more then you can know.I will think about it.I am scared of > everything and everyone right now.

I understand, totally. To some extent, I’ve been in your shoes. Save that post with my email address… In case you wanna talk more, okay! My friend near ottawa, her offer to talk is open as well. If you’re not comfortable emailing or talking, you can find her posting in another newsgroup… alt.support.loneliness, goes by Chloe. I was thinking, it also might be easier for the two of you to communicate in French. She’s a sweetheart!

Response:

On Fri, 04 Feb 2005 15:38:04 GMT, Tracey <rbranch…@aol.com> wrote:

What a typcial feminist! When a man dares to suggest that women do, in fact, lie about allegations, he is told he is not welcome. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->S.Taylor wrote: >> Members of this group are not likely to believe the typical "help me, my husband is >> abusive" call, as too many women have made false allegations. >I think you’re in the wrong group then.

Response:

Many divorcing  women make false allegations. They check into a women’s shelter, are given free lawyer(s) for them and the kids, and promptly spend the next 10 years robbing the innocent husband of his kids, money, and reputation. I estimate the rate of false allegation is now around 50%. It is just so e-a-s-y for women to make the allegations now. One telephone call to 9-1-1 will launch on her behalf a team of government workers (police, social services, women’s shelters) to support her. The man is left on his own. All of this is directly related to the appearance of feminism. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -On Fri, 4 Feb 2005 08:54:26 -0500, "Stephanie Stowe" <IwishIco…@nospam.com> wrote: >*I* believe her because many women have made good their escapes to shelters >and many other women have died at the hands of their abusers. This also >happens to men, but in fewer numbers.

Response:

Elise – are you saying that Quebec has no shelters?     That’s hard to believe! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Stephanie Stowe wrote: > "S.Taylor" <STaylor938…@Hotmail.com> wrote in message > news:80h601dnhh2an8jg9jf7f63nm015ff6fqe@4ax.com… >> Members of this group are not likely to believe the typical "help me, my >> husband is abusive" call, as too many women have made false allegations. > *I* believe her because many women have made good their escapes to shelters > and many other women have died at the hands of their abusers. This also > happens to men, but in fewer numbers. > OP, if you are not familiar with newsgroups, be aware that you have to take > what you read from some people with a grain of salt. And you have to take > what some people say with a 100 lb bag of salt. >> On 3 Feb 2005 14:50:33 -0800, "DaKitty" <conniek…@yahoo.com> wrote: >>> Here, a friend of mine gave me this, for you, to get you started: >>> http://www.casac.ca/avcentres/women_centres.htm#pq >>> http://www.womenaware.ca/index1.htm >>> http://www.altmtl.ca/gender3.html >>> Elise wrote: >>>> I live in Quebec,Canada. >>>> Here there is no place to go, for help around, were I live. >>>> What I am trying to explain is that I don’t have a will to defend >>>> myself anymore.I feel that there is no solution. >>>> He knows  what to do or say to get me to change my mind >>>> each time. >>>> Elise

Response:

Somebody needs to help this gal!   This is horrible – what is happening to her.   Can’t anybody do anything for Elise? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Elise wrote: > Thank you all for the great support you gave me. > First I have to say that my life is not in danger. > It might be if I leave,you know the type to go crazy after you leave,maybe? > He his gone to see his psychologist this afternoon. > I have a whole two hours for me ,alone. > I been married to him now for 37 years,I feel like a very well trained > monkey. > I know that some of you will think that I am stupid,but to the contrary > intellectual I am very intelligent,emotional I am really not so bright. > I was very well trained by a father that used to beat me,an then I married > young > to a man that end up being like him. > He did not show his temper and be possessive before we got married. > At first it felt to me like caring  I craved affection so much. > He was not always angry to. > With him what is bad to his that everything his someone else’s fault. > He never admit making mistakes.I am very understanding and  caring. > Way to much,for going through so many years of this. > But you see it is one hour ,one day one year at a time. > Now at the age I am ,I can’t take it anymore,plus heath problems. > As you can see I am trying to convince myself to leave. > I feel paralyzed ,like I can’t do the next step. > There is also being scarred of being alone. > I was isolated ,and lost all my friends when I was young > and could not makes others. > He would try to get all the attention on him and if this did not work he > would > find an excuse to get angry,so my friends got scared and all disappeared. > Just to put that in words and know that I am not completely alone in the > world > his already a step in the right direction. > I might not be ready to leave today but I know I will if his therapy > does not work. > Sorry for posting such a long post,I need to talk to someone so much. > Thank you, > All your answers were great,except for S.Taylor (Taylor,that was the name of > is mistress), > but I know about what newsgroups . > DaKitty ,yes I am French Canadian,and your offer to have your firnd in > Ottawa help > touch me ,more then you can know.I will think about it.I am scared of > everything and everyone right now. > Stephanie,thank you both for caring,just that is a big help. > Tracey thank to coming to my defense . > Yes Wilma you are right I should,but I can’t….right now. > Exray ,you found my old e-mails,so you know why I am so disrelished. > Elise > "Exray" <ex…@amexol.net> wrote in message > news:kvWdnQVUF5qmfJ_fRVn-oQ@comcast.com… >> You did not owe the divorce group anything.  You have no reason to feel >> ashamed.  People offer thoughts and advice, some good, some bad.   Good >> people will not blame you for not doing everything right and smart, there >> are a lot of good people here and there, too. >> Your responsibility is to take care of yourself and your daughter.  If you >> fail to do that today, you are not a failure, it just means that tomorrow >> you have to try a little bit better. >> "Elise" <norr…@yahoo.com> wrote in message >> news:JtcMd.2551$lw4.609236@news20.bellglobal.com… >>> I don’t know were to ask. >>> Four years ago I posted to the alt.divorce group. >>> My husband’s mistress had phone me ,I was desperate. >>> I was going to divorce him,it did not happened. >>> Why,I can’t. He still abuse me.He say he love me. >>> I am afraid to leave. >>> He shout at me  almost every day. >>> He is in therapy now and it is worst every day. >>> I have no one that I can really talk to . >>> I have  been isolated all my life because of him,is temper . >>> I feel like I lost my power to decide,like I am in a prison >>> and I am the only one seeing the bars. >>> I feel ashamed toward the divorce group,because I did not do what >>> I said I would. >>> He make promesses almost every day  and never keep them. >>> I feel like I am in a war.I never know when he will start to shout >>> for stupid little reasons. >>> I had the police here two weeks ago,they say next time they will >>> take him out. >>> I just want to rest,I need a little time to think . >>> I don’t know what to do.I need a friend. >>> Thank you for reading me,I am sorry if my spelling and grammar is bad. >>> I am not English. >>> Elise

Response:

"S.Taylor" <STaylor938…@Hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:80h601dnhh2an8jg9jf7f63nm015ff6fqe@4ax.com… > Members of this group are not likely to believe the typical "help me, my > husband is > abusive" call, as too many women have made false allegations.

*I* believe her because many women have made good their escapes to shelters and many other women have died at the hands of their abusers. This also happens to men, but in fewer numbers. OP, if you are not familiar with newsgroups, be aware that you have to take what you read from some people with a grain of salt. And you have to take what some people say with a 100 lb bag of salt. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> On 3 Feb 2005 14:50:33 -0800, "DaKitty" <conniek…@yahoo.com> wrote: >>Here, a friend of mine gave me this, for you, to get you started: >>http://www.casac.ca/avcentres/women_centres.htm#pq >>http://www.womenaware.ca/index1.htm >>http://www.altmtl.ca/gender3.html >>Elise wrote: >>> I live in Quebec,Canada. >>> Here there is no place to go, for help around, were I live. >>> What I am trying to explain is that I don’t have a will to defend >>> myself anymore.I feel that there is no solution. >>> He knows  what to do or say to get me to change my mind >>> each time. >>> Elise

Response:

S.Taylor wrote: > Members of this group are not likely to believe the typical "help me, my husband is > abusive" call, as too many women have made false allegations.

I think you’re in the wrong group then. Tracey

Response:

Thank you all for the great support you gave me. First I have to say that my life is not in danger. It might be if I leave,you know the type to go crazy after you leave,maybe? He his gone to see his psychologist this afternoon. I have a whole two hours for me ,alone. I been married to him now for 37 years,I feel like a very well trained monkey. I know that some of you will think that I am stupid,but to the contrary intellectual I am very intelligent,emotional I am really not so bright. I was very well trained by a father that used to beat me,an then I married young to a man that end up being like him. He did not show his temper and be possessive before we got married. At first it felt to me like caring  I craved affection so much. He was not always angry to. With him what is bad to his that everything his someone else’s fault. He never admit making mistakes.I am very understanding and  caring. Way to much,for going through so many years of this. But you see it is one hour ,one day one year at a time. Now at the age I am ,I can’t take it anymore,plus heath problems. As you can see I am trying to convince myself to leave. I feel paralyzed ,like I can’t do the next step. There is also being scarred of being alone. I was isolated ,and lost all my friends when I was young and could not makes others. He would try to get all the attention on him and if this did not work he would find an excuse to get angry,so my friends got scared and all disappeared. Just to put that in words and know that I am not completely alone in the world his already a step in the right direction. I might not be ready to leave today but I know I will if his therapy does not work. Sorry for posting such a long post,I need to talk to someone so much. Thank you, All your answers were great,except for S.Taylor (Taylor,that was the name of is mistress), but I know about what newsgroups . DaKitty ,yes I am French Canadian,and your offer to have your firnd in Ottawa help touch me ,more then you can know.I will think about it.I am scared of everything and everyone right now. Stephanie,thank you both for caring,just that is a big help. Tracey thank to coming to my defense . Yes Wilma you are right I should,but I can’t….right now. Exray ,you found my old e-mails,so you know why I am so disrelished. Elise "Exray" <ex…@amexol.net> wrote in message

news:kvWdnQVUF5qmfJ_fRVn-oQ@comcast.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> You did not owe the divorce group anything.  You have no reason to feel > ashamed.  People offer thoughts and advice, some good, some bad.   Good > people will not blame you for not doing everything right and smart, there > are a lot of good people here and there, too. > Your responsibility is to take care of yourself and your daughter.  If you > fail to do that today, you are not a failure, it just means that tomorrow > you have to try a little bit better. > "Elise" <norr…@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:JtcMd.2551$lw4.609236@news20.bellglobal.com… > >I don’t know were to ask. > > Four years ago I posted to the alt.divorce group. > > My husband’s mistress had phone me ,I was desperate. > > I was going to divorce him,it did not happened. > > Why,I can’t. He still abuse me.He say he love me. > > I am afraid to leave. > > He shout at me  almost every day. > > He is in therapy now and it is worst every day. > > I have no one that I can really talk to . > > I have  been isolated all my life because of him,is temper . > > I feel like I lost my power to decide,like I am in a prison > > and I am the only one seeing the bars. > > I feel ashamed toward the divorce group,because I did not do what > > I said I would. > > He make promesses almost every day  and never keep them. > > I feel like I am in a war.I never know when he will start to shout > > for stupid little reasons. > > I had the police here two weeks ago,they say next time they will > > take him out. > > I just want to rest,I need a little time to think . > > I don’t know what to do.I need a friend. > > Thank you for reading me,I am sorry if my spelling and grammar is bad. > > I am not English. > > Elise

Response:

DaKitty wrote: > Here, a friend of mine gave me this, for you, to get you started: > http://www.casac.ca/avcentres/women_centres.htm#pq > http://www.womenaware.ca/index1.htm > http://www.altmtl.ca/gender3.html

And… I have a friend near Ottawa, I just emailed with her… he’s been through the domestic abuse cycle, and has gotten back on her feet, her and her son. Email me, and I’ll share with you the details of what she said. She offered to talk to you directly, if you’d like. Let me know when/how is a safe way to contact you without him finding out. Don’t lose hope, there’s help out there. Things can be okay again, without him there to hurt you emotionally and physically.

Response:

You did not owe the divorce group anything.  You have no reason to feel ashamed.  People offer thoughts and advice, some good, some bad.   Good people will not blame you for not doing everything right and smart, there are a lot of good people here and there, too. Your responsibility is to take care of yourself and your daughter.  If you fail to do that today, you are not a failure, it just means that tomorrow you have to try a little bit better. "Elise" <norr…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:JtcMd.2551$lw4.609236@news20.bellglobal.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I don’t know were to ask. > Four years ago I posted to the alt.divorce group. > My husband’s mistress had phone me ,I was desperate. > I was going to divorce him,it did not happened. > Why,I can’t. He still abuse me.He say he love me. > I am afraid to leave. > He shout at me  almost every day. > He is in therapy now and it is worst every day. > I have no one that I can really talk to . > I have  been isolated all my life because of him,is temper . > I feel like I lost my power to decide,like I am in a prison > and I am the only one seeing the bars. > I feel ashamed toward the divorce group,because I did not do what > I said I would. > He make promesses almost every day  and never keep them. > I feel like I am in a war.I never know when he will start to shout > for stupid little reasons. > I had the police here two weeks ago,they say next time they will > take him out. > I just want to rest,I need a little time to think . > I don’t know what to do.I need a friend. > Thank you for reading me,I am sorry if my spelling and grammar is bad. > I am not English. > Elise

Response:

"Elise" <norr…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:yiRMd.4484$lw4.937677@news20.bellglobal.com… > Thank you all for the great support you gave me. > First I have to say that my life is not in danger.

I am not trying to contradict you as if you do not know what you are saying. But there are many dead people who said the same thing and are, well dead. > It might be if I leave,you know the type to go crazy after you > leave,maybe? > He his gone to see his psychologist this afternoon.

Why is he seeing a psychologist? I mean, from *his* standpoint why is he seeing one? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I have a whole two hours for me ,alone. > I been married to him now for 37 years,I feel like a very well trained > monkey. > I know that some of you will think that I am stupid,but to the contrary > intellectual I am very intelligent,emotional I am really not so bright. > I was very well trained by a father that used to beat me,an then I married > young > to a man that end up being like him. > He did not show his temper and be possessive before we got married. > At first it felt to me like caring  I craved affection so much. > He was not always angry to. > With him what is bad to his that everything his someone else’s fault. > He never admit making mistakes.I am very understanding and  caring. > Way to much,for going through so many years of this. > But you see it is one hour ,one day one year at a time. > Now at the age I am ,I can’t take it anymore,plus heath problems. > As you can see I am trying to convince myself to leave.

Do you have the hotline number of a shelter. You can call them and just talk. If it is a good shelter, they won’t try to pressure you into anything. Usenet may not be as good as a voice. > I feel paralyzed ,like I can’t do the next step. > There is also being scarred of being alone. > I was isolated ,and lost all my friends when I was young > and could not makes others. > He would try to get all the attention on him and if this did not work he > would > find an excuse to get angry,so my friends got scared and all disappeared. > Just to put that in words and know that I am not completely alone in the > world > his already a step in the right direction.

Where in Quebec do you live? Quebec city? > I might not be ready to leave today but I know I will if his therapy > does not work. > Sorry for posting such a long post,I need to talk to someone so much. > Thank you, > All your answers were great,except for S.Taylor (Taylor,that was the name > of > is mistress), > but I know about what newsgroups .

Keep posting and I will keep talking, as long as you need. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> DaKitty ,yes I am French Canadian,and your offer to have your firnd in > Ottawa help > touch me ,more then you can know.I will think about it.I am scared of > everything and everyone right now. > Stephanie,thank you both for caring,just that is a big help. > Tracey thank to coming to my defense . > Yes Wilma you are right I should,but I can’t….right now. > Exray ,you found my old e-mails,so you know why I am so disrelished. > Elise > "Exray" <ex…@amexol.net> wrote in message > news:kvWdnQVUF5qmfJ_fRVn-oQ@comcast.com… >> You did not owe the divorce group anything.  You have no reason to feel >> ashamed.  People offer thoughts and advice, some good, some bad.   Good >> people will not blame you for not doing everything right and smart, there >> are a lot of good people here and there, too. >> Your responsibility is to take care of yourself and your daughter.  If >> you >> fail to do that today, you are not a failure, it just means that tomorrow >> you have to try a little bit better. >> "Elise" <norr…@yahoo.com> wrote in message >> news:JtcMd.2551$lw4.609236@news20.bellglobal.com… >> >I don’t know were to ask. >> > Four years ago I posted to the alt.divorce group. >> > My husband’s mistress had phone me ,I was desperate. >> > I was going to divorce him,it did not happened. >> > Why,I can’t. He still abuse me.He say he love me. >> > I am afraid to leave. >> > He shout at me  almost every day. >> > He is in therapy now and it is worst every day. >> > I have no one that I can really talk to . >> > I have  been isolated all my life because of him,is temper . >> > I feel like I lost my power to decide,like I am in a prison >> > and I am the only one seeing the bars. >> > I feel ashamed toward the divorce group,because I did not do what >> > I said I would. >> > He make promesses almost every day  and never keep them. >> > I feel like I am in a war.I never know when he will start to shout >> > for stupid little reasons. >> > I had the police here two weeks ago,they say next time they will >> > take him out. >> > I just want to rest,I need a little time to think . >> > I don’t know what to do.I need a friend. >> > Thank you for reading me,I am sorry if my spelling and grammar is bad. >> > I am not English. >> > Elise

Response:

Members of this group are not likely to believe the typical "help me, my husband is abusive" call, as too many women have made false allegations. On 3 Feb 2005 14:50:33 -0800, "DaKitty" <conniek…@yahoo.com> wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Here, a friend of mine gave me this, for you, to get you started: >http://www.casac.ca/avcentres/women_centres.htm#pq >http://www.womenaware.ca/index1.htm >http://www.altmtl.ca/gender3.html >Elise wrote: >> I live in Quebec,Canada. >> Here there is no place to go, for help around, were I live. >> What I am trying to explain is that I don’t have a will to defend >> myself anymore.I feel that there is no solution. >> He knows  what to do or say to get me to change my mind >> each time. >> Elise

Response:

"Elise" <norr…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:tIfMd.2763$lw4.646255@news20.bellglobal.com… >I live in Quebec,Canada. > Here there is no place to go, for help around, were I live. > What I am trying to explain is that I don’t have a will to defend > myself anymore.I feel that there is no solution. > He knows  what to do or say to get me to change my mind > each time.

Elise, if he is hitting and beating you, each day you stay you increases the likelihood of him killing you. Many, many people are killed each year by their spouses though they never thought the abuser would go "that far." Anyone from Quebec know whether they have battered women’s shelters as in the states? I would bet large quantities of money that they do. Elise, if they do, find one near you. Find out its hotline number. The next time your husband is gone for a length of time, pick up the phone and call the hotline number. They will talk you through packing a bag and walking out the door. Take the bus, car if you have it, feet if that is all you have and get to the shelter. Don’t talk to your husband. Definitely do not tell him you are leaving. If he believes you, he may kill you. Just walk out the door. The shelter will have people for you to talk to. They will help you with the practical stuff of eating, sleeping and whatnot until you can get yourself together. As long as you do not go back to your abuser, they can help you. I make it sound like it is easy. It is NOT easy. It is very, very hard. And very, very scary. You will need to reach down into yourself for that inner strength that your husband has been trying to hide from you. You may not remember it is there. *I* know it is there, because I know that you would have to have a huge store of inner strength to live the way you have been living. You have nothing to be ashamed of about what you did or did not say in the divorce group. You have nothing to be ashamed of because you are not doing anything wrong. You are doing the best that a human being can do with the situation that has been dealt you and the feelings you have. Please keep us posted. God does not listen to me much because I am such an infrequent caller. But I will pray for you. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Elise > "DaKitty" <conniek…@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:1107388131.632930.124370@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com… >> Elise wrote: >> > I don’t know were to ask. >> > Four years ago I posted to the alt.divorce group. >> > My husband’s mistress had phone me ,I was desperate. >> > I was going to divorce him,it did not happened. >> > Why,I can’t. He still abuse me.He say he love me. >> > I am afraid to leave. >> >  He shout at me  almost every day. >> > He is in therapy now and it is worst every day. >> > I have no one that I can really talk to . >> > I have  been isolated all my life because of him,is temper . >> > I feel like I lost my power to decide,like I am in a prison >> > and I am the only one seeing the bars. >> > I feel ashamed toward the divorce group,because I did not do what >> > I said I would. >> > He make promesses almost every day  and never keep them. >> > I feel like I am in a war.I never know when he will start to shout >> > for stupid little reasons. >> > I had the police here two weeks ago,they say next time they will >> > take him out. >> > I just want to rest,I need a little time to think . >> > I don’t know what to do.I need a friend. >> > Thank you for reading me,I am sorry if my spelling and grammar is >> bad. >> > I am not English. >> > Elise >> What country do you live in? >> In the US there are quite a few resources for abused women. Look in the >> phonebook, community pages, there are groups and people that will help >> you get on your feet and leave the abuse. >> You need to get out of the abusive situation, no matter how hard it is >> emotionally.

Response:

On Wed, 2 Feb 2005 17:27:54 -0500, Elise sayeth: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I don’t know were to ask. > Four years ago I posted to the alt.divorce group. > My husband’s mistress had phone me ,I was desperate. > I was going to divorce him,it did not happened. > Why,I can’t. He still abuse me.He say he love me. > I am afraid to leave. >  He shout at me  almost every day. > He is in therapy now and it is worst every day. > I have no one that I can really talk to . > I have  been isolated all my life because of him,is temper . > I feel like I lost my power to decide,like I am in a prison > and I am the only one seeing the bars. > I feel ashamed toward the divorce group,because I did not do what > I said I would. > He make promesses almost every day  and never keep them. > I feel like I am in a war.I never know when he will start to shout > for stupid little reasons. > I had the police here two weeks ago,they say next time they will > take him out. > I just want to rest,I need a little time to think . > I don’t know what to do.I need a friend. > Thank you for reading me,I am sorry if my spelling and grammar is bad. > I am not English. > Elise

Leave.

Response:

Here, a friend of mine gave me this, for you, to get you started: http://www.casac.ca/avcentres/women_centres.htm#pq http://www.womenaware.ca/index1.htm http://www.altmtl.ca/gender3.html – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Elise wrote: > I live in Quebec,Canada. > Here there is no place to go, for help around, were I live. > What I am trying to explain is that I don’t have a will to defend > myself anymore.I feel that there is no solution. > He knows  what to do or say to get me to change my mind > each time. > Elise > "DaKitty" <conniek…@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:1107388131.632930.124370@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com… > > Elise wrote: > > > I don’t know were to ask. > > > Four years ago I posted to the alt.divorce group. > > > My husband’s mistress had phone me ,I was desperate. > > > I was going to divorce him,it did not happened. > > > Why,I can’t. He still abuse me.He say he love me. > > > I am afraid to leave. > > >  He shout at me  almost every day. > > > He is in therapy now and it is worst every day. > > > I have no one that I can really talk to . > > > I have  been isolated all my life because of him,is temper . > > > I feel like I lost my power to decide,like I am in a prison > > > and I am the only one seeing the bars. > > > I feel ashamed toward the divorce group,because I did not do what > > > I said I would. > > > He make promesses almost every day  and never keep them. > > > I feel like I am in a war.I never know when he will start to shout > > > for stupid little reasons. > > > I had the police here two weeks ago,they say next time they will > > > take him out. > > > I just want to rest,I need a little time to think . > > > I don’t know what to do.I need a friend. > > > Thank you for reading me,I am sorry if my spelling and grammar is > > bad. > > > I am not English. > > > Elise > > What country do you live in? > > In the US there are quite a few resources for abused women. Look in the > > phonebook, community pages, there are groups and people that will help > > you get on your feet and leave the abuse. > > You need to get out of the abusive situation, no matter how hard it is > > emotionally.

Response:

"Elise" <norr…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:tIfMd.2763$lw4.646255@news20.bellglobal.com… > I live in Quebec,Canada. > Here there is no place to go, for help around, were I live. > What I am trying to explain is that I don’t have a will to defend > myself anymore.I feel that there is no solution. > He knows  what to do or say to get me to change my mind > each time.

That’s what most abusers do, they know how to manipulate you till you give up, and it takes all you have to just keep yourself barely alive… I’ve been there. It’s hard to dig yourself out of it. I have some online friends in canada, I can ask them about what resources are available. Are you French-Canadian? There’s a French Canadian gal I know that’s rather resourceful, and I think lives on the same side of the country as you, she might be able to give you some pointers… Also, you may want to take a peak in another newsgroup  alt.abuse.recovery. Lot of people in there that have been in your situation, and might be able to offer you some understanding emotional support. First thing you need to do slowly, is start building a small network of positive helpful people around you, who know at least a little bit about your situation, and who will be able to offer tidbits of help. The more people you start reaching out to, the more support you’ll get. And DO NOT tell the guy you’re doing it.

Response:

I live in Quebec,Canada. Here there is no place to go, for help around, were I live. What I am trying to explain is that I don’t have a will to defend myself anymore.I feel that there is no solution. He knows  what to do or say to get me to change my mind each time. Elise "DaKitty" <conniek…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:1107388131.632930.124370@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Elise wrote: > > I don’t know were to ask. > > Four years ago I posted to the alt.divorce group. > > My husband’s mistress had phone me ,I was desperate. > > I was going to divorce him,it did not happened. > > Why,I can’t. He still abuse me.He say he love me. > > I am afraid to leave. > >  He shout at me  almost every day. > > He is in therapy now and it is worst every day. > > I have no one that I can really talk to . > > I have  been isolated all my life because of him,is temper . > > I feel like I lost my power to decide,like I am in a prison > > and I am the only one seeing the bars. > > I feel ashamed toward the divorce group,because I did not do what > > I said I would. > > He make promesses almost every day  and never keep them. > > I feel like I am in a war.I never know when he will start to shout > > for stupid little reasons. > > I had the police here two weeks ago,they say next time they will > > take him out. > > I just want to rest,I need a little time to think . > > I don’t know what to do.I need a friend. > > Thank you for reading me,I am sorry if my spelling and grammar is > bad. > > I am not English. > > Elise > What country do you live in? > In the US there are quite a few resources for abused women. Look in the > phonebook, community pages, there are groups and people that will help > you get on your feet and leave the abuse. > You need to get out of the abusive situation, no matter how hard it is > emotionally.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Elise wrote: > I don’t know were to ask. > Four years ago I posted to the alt.divorce group. > My husband’s mistress had phone me ,I was desperate. > I was going to divorce him,it did not happened. > Why,I can’t. He still abuse me.He say he love me. > I am afraid to leave. >  He shout at me  almost every day. > He is in therapy now and it is worst every day. > I have no one that I can really talk to . > I have  been isolated all my life because of him,is temper . > I feel like I lost my power to decide,like I am in a prison > and I am the only one seeing the bars. > I feel ashamed toward the divorce group,because I did not do what > I said I would. > He make promesses almost every day  and never keep them. > I feel like I am in a war.I never know when he will start to shout > for stupid little reasons. > I had the police here two weeks ago,they say next time they will > take him out. > I just want to rest,I need a little time to think . > I don’t know what to do.I need a friend. > Thank you for reading me,I am sorry if my spelling and grammar is bad. > I am not English. > Elise

What country do you live in? In the US there are quite a few resources for abused women. Look in the phonebook, community pages, there are groups and people that will help you get on your feet and leave the abuse. You need to get out of the abusive situation, no matter how hard it is emotionally.

Response:

I don’t know were to ask. Four years ago I posted to the alt.divorce group. My husband’s mistress had phone me ,I was desperate. I was going to divorce him,it did not happened. Why,I can’t. He still abuse me.He say he love me. I am afraid to leave.  He shout at me  almost every day. He is in therapy now and it is worst every day. I have no one that I can really talk to . I have  been isolated all my life because of him,is temper . I feel like I lost my power to decide,like I am in a prison and I am the only one seeing the bars. I feel ashamed toward the divorce group,because I did not do what I said I would. He make promesses almost every day  and never keep them. I feel like I am in a war.I never know when he will start to shout for stupid little reasons. I had the police here two weeks ago,they say next time they will take him out. I just want to rest,I need a little time to think . I don’t know what to do.I need a friend. Thank you for reading me,I am sorry if my spelling and grammar is bad. I am not English. Elise

Response:

::scratches beard that I don’t have::

But how’s your moustache? (Remember Groucho/Chico as stowaways in Monkey Business?) P.

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Some people with, or without,  anxiety can be very upset by posts that they view as attacking them, their efforts, their Trolls have also been known to exploit such vulnerabilities. Moderation provides a safer haven. Meryl – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -so…… i just visited a moderated group,  where all posts are approved by a "committee/hall monitor/omnipotent judges.  doesn’t that cancel the basis of a group?  i.e. forthcoming, honest, self-expression?  just wondering.. cuz i’ve never seen anything like that.  seems to contradict the reasons one would share experiences, based on another’s approval.  wonder who nominates the "chosen ones" to act as the disgressionary governing entity.   i wanna run for office, let’s moderate this group.. i wanna experience POWER in the name of "unacceptable/acceptable" feelings or thoughts.. (i need a platform) or maybe i’m missin’ sumthin. and i’m SURE i’d be moderated outta the building in 2.3 seconds.. ::tryin ta understand:: ~~~~~~tanya   (unappointed judge, and likin it)

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::scratches beard that I don’t have:: But how’s your moustache? (Remember Groucho/Chico as stowaways in Monkey Business?) P.

a day at the races or a night at the opera ??? Even Queen could not decide R.

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Aha.. so you can’t be ‘forthcoming, honest or express yourself’ and be nice at the same time?

what does the judgement call of "nice" have to do with gagging one’s opinion? being "nice" would be up to subjection by moderators, as well, which is also a form of control.  my point was, (is this all that difficult, folks?) that controlling people’s behavior brings you what you WANT, as opposed to the truth.   Nah, you obviously can’t. You are always right, you’re the one and only, the all-time winner, the best of the best, bla bla..

since i have NEVER been a fan of being "right", (was never that pretentious), i see that you have projected your own conclusion on me and made it fact… so thank you for what is obviously on your mind regarding my stated opinions. A moderated group is necessary to avoid flaming among other things, such as spam, or even those who are always complaining, insulting, wishing other’s death, etc. This silly "conversation" couldn’t be possible at ASAPM.

so you would rather see "well-mannered and proper" as opposed to truthful.   that’s cool.  and i think i saw a spot with yer name on it in ASAPM !  why ya here, Sagan? ya done left like 4 times and keep comin back…. and you have been just a manifestation of "nice and polite", yourself ! Take it easy, if you don’t like it, don’t use it. I don’t find a reason to critizise ASAPM,

so i assume you are extremely bored, as your posts so blatantly scream when you just can’t let go of John Hudson.. and to revisit your sensibilities on you… if you don’t like him, don’t talk to him.  i find no reason, myself, to criticize John. Sagan?  (in the world of diametrical opposition, and oxymonic behavior, you’re a natural!) People is very nice there.

so nice is very important to you, from others, i see.  it means something. what does it mean, Sagan?  you’re accepted?  you’re validated?  you’re a product of what others say in a controlled environment, of what you wish to hear? filtering is the greatest cop-out available to avoid truth. what is it, Sagan? with nice as such a goal for you, as an expectation in others, do you think you might consider another personality change?  maybe to "the nice boy?" i, personally, never expected of others what i expect of myself.  in your case, you expect way MORE of others than you expect from yourself, you exude neediness. if one is agreeable with you, that is a workable situation for you. if one is disagreeable with you, they become the enemy… (you really CAN’T handle the truth, Sagan) My 2.334.488 billion cents, specially for you

::tossin it in a fountain:: wishing for you a step up to the mirror… and the ability to not only look, but see….  who you are, what you are, why you are, without judgement or blame..  it’s a difficult reflection to stand still for… that mirror will give you truth, if you allow it… don’t moderate it, inflict your guidelines, or decide what you will see.   look long and hard, open yourself to the truth, you may find the path that was meant for you, if honesty can infiltrate your fear. (the man in the mirror is easy to walk away from, the man in the mirror is harder to stand and face.)                                                                                                 ::followin’ tha yellow brick road:: ~tanya

Response:

Yes dear, you’re missing the point of moderated groups. A group for Jewish people, for example, gets Nazi posts just because it can be done. Moderated groups won’t allow that because no one belonging to such a group wants to see such postings – and the feelings it can bring out.

i guess i AM missing the point… so moderation keeps "real life" outta people’s way, so the reality is much better under wraps.  oh, i think i’m gettin it now ! (protection mechanisms)   For a group of Nazis (or the like), they don’t want bible thumpers running through their group touting ‘the’ answers – and….. tolerance!

whadda they want?  to live in a dream world or face reality.  i’m votin on dream world. Bible thumpers don’t want atheists posting ‘only’ to cause trouble.

no, we wouldn’t want ta see the other point of view, the opposition’s behavior, as it is vulgar, and we can’t have THAT !  the behavior of the some atheists, (not to generalize) should NEVER be acknowledged, as that should NEVER be part of the learning experience the newsgroups seem to employ. Are there legit posts that could be food for thought?

the posts that are not supportive of your group… in no way could be food for thought, i guess.  i guess ya can’t compare apples and oranges.  (cuz the oranges are just troublemakers). Is that the norm, however? I haven’t seen that to be the case, in over 8 years on usenet.

so discrimination serves a purpose in your view, i see.. turning a blind eye is a very popular theory among those who choose not to see. For those serious about the group/subject, this ‘clutter’ gets in the way of exchanging ideas or just thoughts with each other.

one man’s trash is another man’s treasure.  ever think the "clutter" may be just as important as the "idea exchaning" system?   Those are extreme examples, perhaps. Perhaps not.

no, they’re examples.. who am i to judge their extremity, or otherwise.   For those with social phobia, judgments and name calling can be a real slam and set back – as these folks are usually fighting a ‘feeling’ of being scrutinized of every word they write.

it doesn’t stop the world from turning, should the ways of the world not be part of the learning process?   They can choose to read their name in a subject, or in a post being called all sorts of names (or the potential that it will happen), or choose to belong to a group where that doesn’t happen.

safety zones create comfort, (a false sense, sometimes) among those unwilling to take responsibity for the truth, as we know it, and as it displays itself. They can choose to belong to a group where flame wars are possible, and just ‘go with the flow’ or choose to be in a group where they don’t have to face that possibility (which is more a likelihood – or inevitable part of usenet, actually).

i’m guessin the option to choose the "easy way out" and not face reality is the way ta go for some, no "in your face" stuff, that could create havoc.. (which, of course, is non-existent in the world) Some just can’t stand the noise, so exercise a choice. It would appear that you’re all for personal choices…

amen. i feel ya.  would i be a moderator?  (well, i’d never be asked, but let’s pretend)  no, i would not.  i couldn’t bear the responsibility of filtering real life scenarios from people apt to deal with real life scenarios.   do ya keep yer kid home from school cuz a bully threatens him?  or ya teach him how ta stand tall, be counted. yes, every person has a right to chose to hide.  well said. (just ain’t my bag) ~tanya

Response:

The thing with us E-man is that we both saw what it can do to a newsgroup… Some posters are not even aware that everything is archive… We are old timers

so why ya here in an unmoderated group?  you left, Rich, and you choose to come back on a whim.. (i mean tip) that your new group is being discussed?  so you respect Y’ALL’S need to have no intrusive behavior, but ya sure run for the open door of this group ta display your opinions of my opinion.  and it’s archived?  so?  does that mean something?  so some people are pack rats…. i’m all for anyone being here…. just kinda strange that the people that stand for "non-invasion" choose this group as their forum to promote moderated values. kinda like advertising for Burger King with a Big Mac in yer hand. and where ya been, Rich?   ya not IMin the hell outta me no more… i guess the truth does tend to create strange bedfellows.  i miss ya tho ! ~~~no more songs, no more love poems, no more "singin muh praises"… i think shall wilt. ~tanya

Response:

I have my own archives of many ‘non-archived’ posters It’s certainly not for the paranoid

(even though you find it necessary to mention you have the archives.   i understand.. i had a boyfriend in 9th grade that reminded me of everything i did and said at when and where.. it was great for him ta have proof ta make me wrong.  that was so long ago, wonder where he is.. i’m hopin he grew up ! who really need a ’somewhat’ protected atmosphere, where they won’t get attacked,

(antarctica?) The delete key doesn’t make the ’subject line’ invisible!

::coverin eyes:: NO NO NO !!! NOT THE SUBJECT LINE !  and WHO IS GONNA KEEP THEM CHICK-FILET BILLBOARDS OUTTA MY REALM OF VISION?  I HAD SUCH A PHOBIA OF CLIMBIN’ COWS ! I will say there are some fantastic idiots at ASAPM, but some real doosies on ASAP as well

well yer a very fair man.  and idiots are everywhere, if you care to judge that, and how do you possibly adjust all THOSE people out of your awareness? remaining unaware, creating your own truth, seems a very popular theme for your forum. Not wanting cootie subjects crosses all age, sex and IQ barriers

i couldn’t have proven your own point one iota more effectively as you did, yourself. For me, I don’t care one way or the other.

yes, this is obvious by your non-participatory behavior. I do feel that for support groups to live on, however, they need a moderated version, at the very least.

( i thought ya didn’t care one way or the other… maybe ya change yer mind a lot.. ) That’s my long standing opinion on that

yes, thou opinionated one that don’t care one way or the other… it’s my story and I’m stickin’ to it…..

then ya best stop talkin now.. cuz yer bound ta contradict yerself, based on your previous posts. (don’t it feel icky ta see yerself knee-deep in vulnerabilty?… and oxymoronic waters?) ~xoxoxoxox ~tanya

Response:

Sure, but spam can *really* change the character of a newsgroup and chase people away. You might be able to cope with that but a lot of people can’t.

can’t cope with spam?  JAN !!!!  omggggg, i hope these same people ain’t runnin around loose !!!  if ya can’t cope with spam, i ain’t sure there’s much else ya can cope with.   maybe it’s a new disorder…. "spamania" …..  LOLOLOL ~xoxoxox tanya

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disorder to worry about!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sure, but spam can *really* change the character of a newsgroup and chase people away. You might be able to cope with that but a lot of people can’t. can’t cope with spam?  JAN !!!!  omggggg, i hope these same people ain’t runnin around loose !!!  if ya can’t cope with spam, i ain’t sure there’s much else ya can cope with. maybe it’s a new disorder…. "spamania" …..  LOLOLOL ~xoxoxox tanya

Response:

so…… i just visited a moderated group,  where all posts are approved by a "committee/hall monitor/omnipotent judges.  doesn’t that cancel the basis of a group?  i.e. forthcoming, honest, self-expression?  just wondering.. cuz i’ve never seen anything like that.

Aha.. so you can’t be ‘forthcoming, honest or express yourself’ and be nice at the same time? Nah, you obviously can’t. You are always right, you’re the one and only, the all-time winner, the best of the best, bla bla.. A moderated group is necessary to avoid flaming among other things, such as spam, or even those who are always complaining, insulting, wishing other’s death, etc. This silly "conversation" couldn’t be possible at ASAPM. or maybe i’m missin’ sumthin. and i’m SURE i’d be moderated outta the building in 2.3 seconds.. ::tryin ta understand::

Take it easy, if you don’t like it, don’t use it. I don’t find a reason to critizise ASAPM, unless you’re bored or have too much spare time to waste. People is very nice there. My 2.334.488 billion cents, specially for you Sagan

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sure, but spam can *really* change the character of a newsgroup and chase people away. You might be able to cope with that but a lot of people can’t. can’t cope with spam?  JAN !!!!  omggggg, i hope these same people ain’t runnin around loose !!!  if ya can’t cope with spam, i ain’t sure there’s much else ya can cope with.   maybe it’s a new disorder…. "spamania" …..  LOLOLOL ~xoxoxox tanya

Give me a break. I was just pointing out how moderation can be useful and suddenly I am incapable of dealing with spam. I’m just saying moderated groups exist for a reason. DEAL WITH IT. — Be here below, all that you are above! http://tinyurl.com/4pztu

Response:

I once had a difficult and long bout with spamania.  The onset was insidious and not easily noticed by others at first; just a few spam sandwiches here and there..  Before long, I was buying whole grocery bags full of spam cans, and about a year later I found myself buying it by the case, and rooms in my home were filled with cases and cases of spam.  At any moment, I was given to just rip a box open, and devour the spam from a can or two, with my bare hands…. It was not pretty. Through much CBT (!) I was able to cut down on spam, and eventually weaned off it altogether using a very gradual tapering program (about 1/4 to 1/8 of my daily amount every week or so).  Thankfully I am now Spam-Free and eat a normal amount of canned meat products (none) and for this I am thankful to all who offered their support and help. Spam is the worst food in America.  Am I still allowed to say that?  I imagine that if the Bush/Cheney world order continues to come to fruition, the day will come when I can’t.  Politics is probably best left out of a good old fashionned anecdote though, so I will just caution.  Spam: it can catch up with you.  Spamania:  uncommon?  no; a violation of all that is holy, most definitely. Gary

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sure, but spam can *really* change the character of a newsgroup and chase people away. You might be able to cope with that but a lot of people can’t. can’t cope with spam?  JAN !!!!  omggggg, i hope these same people ain’t runnin around loose !!!  if ya can’t cope with spam, i ain’t sure there’s much else ya can cope with. maybe it’s a new disorder…. "spamania" …..  LOLOLOL ~xoxoxox tanya

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Some just can’t stand the noise, so exercise a choice. It would appear that you’re all for personal choices… so….. http://makeashorterlink.com/?P2A512BB9 (it reads so nice, I posted it twice — E…

The thing with us E-man is that we both saw what it can do to a newsgroup… Some posters are not even aware that everything is archive… We are old timers do you prefer mine ??? Even some from popejed! http://tinyurl.com/4arop Rich

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I will say there are some fantastic idiots at ASAPM, but some real doosies on ASAP as well.  Not wanting cootie subjects crosses all age, sex and IQ barriers For me, I don’t care one way or the other. I do feel that for support groups to live on, however, they need a moderated version, at the very least. That’s my long standing opinion on that – it’s my story and I’m stickin’ to it…..

I guess it won’t be a big surprise E-Man, I agree with you 100%… The beauty of this is that you can actually *choose* where you want to hang out, post or lurk… ‘nother one? http://tinyurl.com/3o4wr Rich

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a day at the races or a night at the opera ??? Even Queen could not decide

CLEAN UP ON AISLE 3 !  WE GOTTA TAIL-GATER !

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the point is there are two gums in one. trident bubblegum and spearmint . Guess who is the bubblegum and guess who is the spearmint? I can go on and on about this but then again I don’t want to bring out my Catcher in the rye guy unless you wanna hear it.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – so…… i just visited a moderated group,  where all posts are approved by a "committee/hall monitor/omnipotent judges.  doesn’t that cancel the basis of a group?  i.e. forthcoming, honest, self-expression?  just wondering.. cuz i’ve never seen anything like that.  seems to contradict the reasons one would share experiences, based on another’s approval.  wonder who nominates the "chosen ones" to act as the disgressionary governing entity. i wanna run for office, let’s moderate this group.. i wanna experience POWER in the name of "unacceptable/acceptable" feelings or thoughts.. (i need a platform) or maybe i’m missin’ sumthin. and i’m SURE i’d be moderated outta the building in 2.3 seconds.. ::tryin ta understand:: ~~~~~~tanya   (unappointed judge, and likin it)

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For me, I don’t care one way or the other

HERRRRRRRRRRRRRE we go agin. I do feel that for support groups to live on, however, they need a moderated version, at the very least.

(still don’t care, ya see) That’s my long standing opinion on that

(don’t care… nope.. no care tracks behind HIM!) I guess it won’t be a big surprise E-Man, I agree with you 100%…

……then we have the "contradiction in terms" support system, followers of all, leaders of none. The beauty of this is that you can actually *choose* where you want to hang out, post or lurk…

and here ?  you can do it without a hall monitor !  as acceptance is a common thread among most in here.  and you can post in the other group, and ya just might be booted to da curb.  so your "hang out, post, or lurk where ya want" comment?  you getta 2 outta 3.. THANKS FOR PLAYIN !

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i never understood the disdain for spam… i’ve always been quite capable of ignoring and/or deleting the stuff… maybe i just don’t get irritated by the stuff that’s so easily dispensed with and solvable by a push of a button.  my own fruition seems ta get me thru many things more important than spam.  GIVE PEOPLE SOME CREDIT !!!!!  fer chissakes… ya think the moderator is interested if not, just filter spam.. and be done with it. BAM ! ~tanya

Sure, but spam can *really* change the character of a newsgroup and chase people away. You might be able to cope with that but a lot of people can’t. If you have something good going why not protect it? And moderation is one way. Jan — Be here below, all that you are above! http://tinyurl.com/4pztu

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – so…… i just visited a moderated group,  where all posts are approved by a "committee/hall monitor/omnipotent judges.  doesn’t that cancel the basis of a group?  i.e. forthcoming, honest, self-expression?  just wondering.. cuz i’ve never seen anything like that.  seems to contradict the reasons one would share experiences, based on another’s approval.  wonder who nominates the "chosen ones" to act as the disgressionary governing entity.   i wanna run for office, let’s moderate this group.. i wanna experience POWER in the name of "unacceptable/acceptable" feelings or thoughts.. (i need a platform) or maybe i’m missin’ sumthin. and i’m SURE i’d be moderated outta the building in 2.3 seconds.. ::tryin ta understand:: ~~~~~~tanya   (unappointed judge, and likin it)

It’s not a bad thing. For one, moderation keeps out spam. This can be really useful in groups which have the word sex in their title eg alt.sexual-abuse.recovery. j — Be here below, all that you are above! http://tinyurl.com/4pztu

Response:

Now you get the feel of it Tanya, what is the point?

i still dunno.. if ya dictate ta people, don’t allow room for them to be themselves, then whacha end up with is a robotic version of your OWN integrity placed upon another, which masks the real person, so you’ve basically set yourself up to be lied to, inadvertently, i’m sure, as i ain’t real sure these people don’t know manipulation of behavior breeds diminishment of that persons true self…. so i guess if that’s their bag…. they can diggit. personally?  i wanna know who YOU are, not who you are when living sumbody else’s standards. i guess ya get what ya want that way, and if what ya want is more important than the truth?  DING DING DING !!!!  i reckon ya got whacha asked for. The result is a daily heap of pap,

is that a smear?????? ewwwwwwww "Question of the Day"!!  yeah, that was way creative. "what is the molecular content of grits?" woulda been more interesting, i’m thinkin. but then agin… i never participated in PMS chat anyway.  i’m too busy PMS’n. Ugh! It’s Monday!! ;o(

it was 4:00 this mornin’ and right in tha middle of a dream…. i was kissin’ Valentino by a crystal blue italian streammmm….. <<<<just another manic monday xoxoxoxoxox ~tanya

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It’s not a bad thing. For one, moderation keeps out spam.

i never understood the disdain for spam… i’ve always been quite capable of ignoring and/or deleting the stuff… maybe i just don’t get irritated by the stuff that’s so easily dispensed with and solvable by a push of a button.  my own fruition seems ta get me thru many things more important than spam.  GIVE PEOPLE SOME CREDIT !!!!!  fer chissakes… ya think the moderator is interested if not, just filter spam.. and be done with it. BAM ! ~tanya

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – so…… i just visited a moderated group,  where all posts are approved by a "committee/hall monitor/omnipotent judges.  doesn’t that cancel the basis of a group?  i.e. forthcoming, honest, self-expression?  just wondering.. cuz i’ve never seen anything like that.  seems to contradict the reasons one would share experiences, based on another’s approval.  wonder who nominates the "chosen ones" to act as the disgressionary governing entity. i wanna run for office, let’s moderate this group.. i wanna experience POWER in the name of "unacceptable/acceptable" feelings or thoughts.. (i need a platform) or maybe i’m missin’ sumthin. and i’m SURE i’d be moderated outta the building in 2.3 seconds.. ::tryin ta understand:: ~~~~~~tanya   (unappointed judge, and likin it)

I can only guess that some people like the comfort of sercurity that a moderated group gives. There a modded one and an unmodded one so people can make their own personal choice I guess.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s not a bad thing. For one, moderation keeps out spam. i never understood the disdain for spam… i’ve always been quite capable of ignoring and/or deleting the stuff… maybe i just don’t get irritated by the stuff that’s so easily dispensed with and solvable by a push of a button. my own fruition seems ta get me thru many things more important than spam. GIVE PEOPLE SOME CREDIT !!!!!  fer chissakes… ya think the moderator is interested if not, just filter spam.. and be done with it. BAM ! ~tanya

I often find some spam quite amusing. Daniko.

Response:

so…… i just visited a moderated group,  where all posts are approved by a "committee/hall monitor/omnipotent judges.  doesn’t that cancel the basis of a group?  i.e. forthcoming, honest, self-expression?  just wondering.. cuz i’ve never seen anything like that.  seems to contradict the reasons one would share experiences, based on another’s approval.  wonder who nominates the "chosen ones" to act as the disgressionary governing entity.   i wanna run for office, let’s moderate this group.. i wanna experience POWER in the name of "unacceptable/acceptable" feelings or thoughts.. (i need a platform) or maybe i’m missin’ sumthin. and i’m SURE i’d be moderated outta the building in 2.3 seconds.. ::tryin ta understand:: ~~~~~~tanya   (unappointed judge, and likin it)

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -so…… i just visited a moderated group,  where all posts are approved by a "committee/hall monitor/omnipotent judges.  doesn’t that cancel the basis of a group?  i.e. forthcoming, honest, self-expression?  just wondering.. cuz i’ve never seen anything like that.  seems to contradict the reasons one would share experiences, based on another’s approval.  wonder who nominates the "chosen ones" to act as the disgressionary governing entity.   i wanna run for office, let’s moderate this group.. i wanna experience POWER in the name of "unacceptable/acceptable" feelings or thoughts.. (i need a platform) or maybe i’m missin’ sumthin. and i’m SURE i’d be moderated outta the building in 2.3 seconds.. ::tryin ta understand:: ~~~~~~tanya   (unappointed judge, and likin it)

Now you get the feel of it Tanya, what is the point? It means a few control freaks get to run things to their own entire satisfaction. The result is a daily heap of pap, which is about as stimulating as a teenagers’ chat room. As I said about ASAPM, just have a look at the content of the posts, particularly Queen Jacksie’s "Question of the Day"!! BAWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA er… etc! Ugh! It’s Monday!! ;o(

Response:

The chinese definition of insanity is doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting different results.

(AA says that alla time too.. them people irritate me… they make ya hold hands and ya got icky people touchin ya.  i got kicked outta them things when i went with my brother cuz i wouldn’t "complete the circle" by holdin some dork’s hand i didn’t know)  BUT I GOT MY DAMN COOKIE, MIND YA ! First of all, Mark Twain said it best – worrying is like paying interest on a debt you never even owed…

yeah, Gary.. but in a former post you said that 90% of what we worry about never happens… so i’m thinkin them’s pretty good odds for "success via worry". Secondly, none of us are independent.

is that kinda like "no man is an island?"  (now that’s one thing i think coulda gone all day and never heard and still figgered out i wasn’t a dang island) If you personally need to be dependent for a while to avoid becoming "crazy", I’d submit

 that dependence in your case isn’t such a bad thing, and you can always work towards a level of "interdependence" while in the tropics

::spew:: !!!!  i’m gonna start submitting el pronto !  (all other things being equal, your wardrobe can be much lighter there, and you can work on your tan.)

(and boys never gotta search for a towel rack and chicks get ta fight over tha last donut, (which leads to a fight over the gal that ate the last donut, which leads to a fight over the guy that could carry the most donuts, which….. ok… ::poppinah blue::) ~tanya

Response:

I think talking about Jan’s titrating her medication dosage is sort of like re-arranging the furniture on the Titanic.  By her own admission, she feels like her life is going nowhere, and this is WITH the ‘help’ of medication, a therapist, few friends (but who are supportive, from what I can garner). She is unemployed and on welfare, additionally; so I’m inclined to think that the years spent on citalopram have not borne much fruit. Jan, go to the ticket counter, and buy your tickets to the tropics, you are fortunate to have the option (just my opinion) and things sound like they can only get better.  Continue taking the citalopram in the tropics – I agree with Philip’s titration schedule, in your case, I’d titrate down, with a 5 mg drop every TWO weeks (once you’re in a happier place, assuming it is, it won’t be like being on the Titanic anymore). Delta is ready when you are! Gary oh, and ps:  round-trip fares are often no more expensive than one-way tickets, so you may want to consider buying a round trip ticket, in case you hate it in the tropics too. GF

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Did you have any beneficial effect from citalopram? (It takes a few weeks – up to eight – to kick in.) Or did you get initial side effect problems after raising the dose to 20 mg? Usually it’s best to start at 5 mg and raise the dose in weekly increments of 5 mg. Conversely the same goes for weaning off of it. I’ve been on the citalopram for a number of years. I felt that it was not allowing me to connect with my feelings so well. I’ve never liked taking medication. No ones does. It’s not a hobby. But sometimes it’s *necessary*. I couldn’t do without. If I may ask, what are your objections to medication? Anti depressants give me some really uncomfortable side effects and the sedatives make me downright depressed. Very simplified: they restore a chemical imbalance in your brain by putting the amount of serotonin there to better use (if they are SSRI’s like citalopram). AFAIK they don’t cause brain damage. But you have a point: taking a med is taking a risk and the exact mechanism by which these meds act is not fully understood. OTOH having panic attacks is also taking a risk and can make normal functioning totally impossible for many. So it’s a matter of choice for every individual. I’m aware of the rationale behind the SSRIs. However I think their benefits are overstated and the disadvantages are understated. I say this based on my experience and seeing others on them. I don’t like the idea of putting an artificial chemical in my body. Surely there must be a more natural way to restore brain and body chemistry. An acquaintance of mine has turned a depression around purely through diet changes and relaxation.  This is when I start really panicking and running for the medication. Unfortunately (!) everyone around me says that I’m doing better than I think. They don’t feel what *you* feel. So their opinion doesn’t count. Their opinion does count. They often (not always) see my situation and fears better than i do and help me see things as they are rather than overdramatise everything. I know you’re going to say I need to trust myself more and you’re right. This is my main issue. Learning to trust myself, make my own decisions.  Maybe I *can* deal with this on my own without the medication. I dunno… It sounds like you’re in doubt, then chose to start medication and now, after having been on it for too short a time to be able to really evaluate the med’s effect, you are trying to stop it again. What does your pdoc say? I’d think either you decide not to take meds and don’t *or* decide to take medication after all and in that case it’s no use getting off of it without having given it a chance. Like I said I’ve been on the meds for several years. My pdoc is of the opinion that medications won’t help me so much. In fact I attribute any progress I’ve made to medications rather than myself. They may be more of a psychological crutch at this point rather than anything else. Thanks for your feedback, Jan

Response:

<And now the autumn and winter are coming with rain and grey weather. Am I being a coward if I just take off from here (Norway) to be with my parents who live in the tropics? Am I enforcing my feeling of helplessness by taking off? Should I stay here and face this? Hmm, rain, grey weather and a feeling of oncoming depression on the one hand, or going to the sunny tropics, not being homebound, and being with one’s family…. Jan, I don’t want to sound unsupportive at all – but I think that one is a no-brainer – go be with your family.  The fact that you even had the idea, and typed it here for examination by anyone tells me that it’s an idea that you came up with, and are giving consideration to. I recall once that my father told me that sometimes the best way to get out of the rain was to just walk in the opposite direction of the cloud. Certainly that is not always true, but sometimes it is EXACTLY what we need to do.  Norway hasn’t shown you much, no job, not much social life (and certainly not enough to keep you feeling confident or happy), "scared of prospects" I assume means there are worse things that you see on the horizon (not sure on that one).  Also, why is taking some action, like moving (which isn’t THAT easy to do, even in the best circumstances) going to reinforce your feeling of helplessness?  Your family may be much more empowering than you know. In the immortal words of a very good substance abuse counselor that I know "You’ve tried it your way, why don’t you just TRY the other way???" Depression is an illness that affects everything right down to the soul..  A fairly well known scholar and author on the soul (Thomas Moore) said that there is no better place to nurture the soul than in the context of a family (paraphrasing).  Get an airplane ticket and a beach towel, and get the hell out of there. My two cents worth, Gary ps:  You say being homebound is driving you "crazy" – I submit that living in the tropics will not be any worse than being driven crazy, and if it is, Norway isn’t going anywhere, and you can go back. GF

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The past couple of days have been hell and it seems like my recovery program has been shot to hell. I feel like I’ve really lost it and am in a negative spiral. I’m just venting, just venting. Well, my attempt to reduce medication is bringing things on a little too fast. I probably need to increase the dose again. I don’t like doing this but perhaps it’s the wisest thing for me right now. F***! Jan I just want to say that my greatest fear is one of getting depressed. I know you’re supposed to say you can cope with whatever happens but I just *can’t* cope with being depressed again. I don’t want to go through a depression again. I want to run away! I’m homebound and it’s driving me crazy. I F-ing hate it but going out is tough too. And now the autumn and winter are coming with rain and grey weather. Am I being a coward if I just take off from here (Norway) to be with my parents who live in the tropics? Am I enforcing my feeling of helplessness by taking off? Should I stay here and face this? I have no job, few friends, live on welfare and am scared of my prospects! Supportive comments *only* please. Jan

Response:

 In fact I attribute any progress I’ve made to medications rather than myself. They may be more of a psychological crutch at this point rather than anything else. Or maybe they are the treatment for your condition. I believe I have depression for life and thankful that there is medication to treat it. Meryl

Then you’re really lucky. I’ve never found medication to make that difference that I needed. That’s what makes me so unsure about the stuff. Jan

Response:

I think talking about Jan’s titrating her medication dosage is sort of like re-arranging the furniture on the Titanic.  By her own admission, she feels like her life is going nowhere, and this is WITH the ‘help’ of medication, a therapist, few friends (but who are supportive, from what I can garner). She is unemployed and on welfare, additionally; so I’m inclined to think that the years spent on citalopram have not borne much fruit.

That’s how I’m looking at things right now. The citalopram has not borne much fruit all these years. What has helped was reducing the dose so that the pain would motivate me to really make changes in myself. I spent years on the citalopram without really making any changes in myself. But yes, right now I don’t think medication is the issue. I need to do something different. I’m scared, I don’t know if it’ll really help me to go to Malaysia. What if it doesn’t help? What if I feel *worse*? What will I do then? What if I like it there? How will I handle moving permanently? What about my girlfriend? And my cat? I worry, worry, worry. Well, I’ve decided to go. I’m going to check out the airfares. I’ll try to tidy up my affairs here and then I’ll go. Jan, go to the ticket counter, and buy your tickets to the tropics, you are fortunate to have the option (just my opinion) and things sound like they can only get better.  Continue taking the citalopram in the tropics – I agree with Philip’s titration schedule, in your case, I’d titrate down, with a 5 mg drop every TWO weeks (once you’re in a happier place, assuming it is, it won’t be like being on the Titanic anymore).

I’m going to meet with my pdoc today and we’ll talk about the medication. I also have my first group therapy meeting today. I’m disappointed that I have to pull out of that one since I’m going away. Thanks for the positive comments. It helps a lot. It helps especially when I know that others experience life the way I do. regards, Jan PS For the record everyone, I’m a guy. In Europe Jan is usually a guy’s name.

Response:

was referring to the "success via worry" part…. as YOU once said "outta context is a nasty habit, but yer forgiven." Laughing – god you make me laugh so much……. Gary (the IT boy)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ya witch. xoxoxo Gary Miss "it girl" – dumb would be a big step up for that statement.  ’nuff said <gasp  i’m a step BELOW dumb now?  YOU SAID IT, *IT* BOY !  90% of what we worry about never happens.. in a former post ya said it. i’m thinkin a 90% positive return on investment is some pretty good odds, like it or not..   tell ya what, Gar… i’ll give you 100 bucks.. you gimme back $190.. i’ll be the dumbest bitch on da block til death do us part.. let’s do it twice a week, then up tha ante. then you’ll wanna marry me cuz i’m rich. see how y’are? ::slurppppppppppppppps:: ~tanya

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ya witch. xoxoxo Gary

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Miss "it girl" – dumb would be a big step up for that statement.  ’nuff said <gasp  i’m a step BELOW dumb now?  YOU SAID IT, *IT* BOY !  90% of what we worry about never happens.. in a former post ya said it. i’m thinkin a 90% positive return on investment is some pretty good odds, like it or not..   tell ya what, Gar… i’ll give you 100 bucks.. you gimme back $190.. i’ll be the dumbest bitch on da block til death do us part.. let’s do it twice a week, then up tha ante. then you’ll wanna marry me cuz i’m rich. see how y’are? ::slurppppppppppppppps:: ~tanya

Response:

Miss "it girl" – dumb would be a big step up for that statement.  ’nuff said

<gasp  i’m a step BELOW dumb now?  YOU SAID IT, *IT* BOY !  90% of what we worry about never happens.. in a former post ya said it. i’m thinkin a 90% positive return on investment is some pretty good odds, like it or not..   tell ya what, Gar… i’ll give you 100 bucks.. you gimme back $190.. i’ll be the dumbest bitch on da block til death do us part.. let’s do it twice a week, then up tha ante.   then you’ll wanna marry me cuz i’m rich. see how y’are? ::slurppppppppppppppps:: ~tanya

Response:

<yeah, Gary.. but in a former post you said that 90% of what we worry about never happens… so i’m thinkin them’s pretty good odds for "success via worry". Miss "it girl" – dumb would be a big step up for that statement.  ’nuff said xoxoxox Gary "it boy"

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The chinese definition of insanity is doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting different results. (AA says that alla time too.. them people irritate me… they make ya hold hands and ya got icky people touchin ya.  i got kicked outta them things when i went with my brother cuz i wouldn’t "complete the circle" by holdin some dork’s hand i didn’t know)  BUT I GOT MY DAMN COOKIE, MIND YA ! First of all, Mark Twain said it best – worrying is like paying interest on a debt you never even owed… yeah, Gary.. but in a former post you said that 90% of what we worry about never happens… so i’m thinkin them’s pretty good odds for "success via worry". Secondly, none of us are independent. is that kinda like "no man is an island?"  (now that’s one thing i think coulda gone all day and never heard and still figgered out i wasn’t a dang island) If you personally need to be dependent for a while to avoid becoming "crazy", I’d submit that dependence in your case isn’t such a bad thing, and you can always work towards a level of "interdependence" while in the tropics ::spew:: !!!!  i’m gonna start submitting el pronto ! (all other things being equal, your wardrobe can be much lighter there, and you can work on your tan.) (and boys never gotta search for a towel rack and chicks get ta fight over tha last donut, (which leads to a fight over the gal that ate the last donut, which leads to a fight over the guy that could carry the most donuts, which….. ok… ::poppinah blue::) ~tanya

Response:

The jury is most certainly still out on this.  A number of people who have done just fine on Celexa changed to Lexapro and had side effects they had never had on any compound they’d been on.  In theory they’d be so similar (because of taking apart the stereo-isomer) that all you’d have is increased potency, but it seems they are two different animals.  Both drugs, incidentally, are under patent in the U.S. and will be for some time to come.  Celexa was used for years in Europe before it was brought here.  It is my personal favorite AD, but that’s fairly incidental and actually kinda irrelevant. Kind Regards, Gary

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is the brand name for that Jan? Is that Lexapro? That’s what I’m on. *citalporam* is the stuff that’s both in Celexa and Lexapro. As the patent on Cenexa ended the manufacturer had to think of a way to bring a new med on the market that would be very expensive (the pharmaceutical industry is your best friend Actually Lexapro is the *active* isomer of Celexa which in practice means that Lexapro is more potent and in theory that it should have fewer side effects. The jury is still out on this. Philip What medication are you trying to reduce and in what way? Philip I was reducing my citalpram from 20mg to 10mg to nothing. I’ve been on 10mg for a number of weeks. I’ve been very unsure of whether this is the right thing to do but my pdoc and I are working together on this. I’ve never liked taking medication. Talking therapy and catharsis seemed to have worked best for me. Medication just seemed to control symptoms but really, who knows what they do. Right now I feel like I’ve lost a lot of control of my situation. This is when I start really panicking and running for the medication. Unfortunately (!) everyone around me says that I’m doing better than I think. Maybe I *can* deal with this on my own without the medication. I dunno… Jan

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The past couple of days have been hell and it seems like my recovery program has been shot to hell. I feel like I’ve really lost it and am in a negative spiral. I’m just venting, just venting. Well, my attempt to reduce medication is bringing things on a little too fast. I probably need to increase the dose again. I don’t like doing this but perhaps it’s the wisest thing for me right now. F***! Jan I just want to say that my greatest fear is one of getting depressed. I know you’re supposed to say you can cope with whatever happens but I just *can’t* cope with being depressed again. I don’t want to go through a depression again. I want to run away! I’m homebound and it’s driving me crazy. I F-ing hate it but going out is tough too. And now the autumn and winter are coming with rain and grey weather. Am I being a coward if I just take off from here (Norway) to be with my parents who live in the tropics? Am I enforcing my feeling of helplessness by taking off? Should I stay here and face this? I have no job, few friends, live on welfare and am scared of my prospects!

Jan, If you have SAD (seasonal affective disorder), this doesn’t seem to be the right time to reduce your medication.  Have you tried light therapy or dawn simulators to try to help you through the winters? Personally, if your parents are suppportive, I’d suggest going to the tropics for the winter.  In addition to the necessary sunlight, you can discuss your situation with them and maybe they can make some useful suggestions or offer some additional options that may be more effective than the ones you’ve tried. My own back-up plan for this winter is to head toward the Western portion of the U.S. where there’s planty of light year ’round if the urge to hibernate gets overwhelming. Figaro

Response:

What is the brand name for that Jan? Is that Lexapro? That’s what I’m on.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What medication are you trying to reduce and in what way? Philip I was reducing my citalpram from 20mg to 10mg to nothing. I’ve been on 10mg for a number of weeks. I’ve been very unsure of whether this is the right thing to do but my pdoc and I are working together on this. I’ve never liked taking medication. Talking therapy and catharsis seemed to have worked best for me. Medication just seemed to control symptoms but really, who knows what they do. Right now I feel like I’ve lost a lot of control of my situation. This is when I start really panicking and running for the medication. Unfortunately (!) everyone around me says that I’m doing better than I think. Maybe I *can* deal with this on my own without the medication. I dunno… Jan

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The past couple of days have been hell and it seems like my recovery program has been shot to hell. I feel like I’ve really lost it and am in a negative spiral. I’m just venting, just venting. Well, my attempt to reduce medication is bringing things on a little too fast. I probably need to increase the dose again. I don’t like doing this but perhaps it’s the wisest thing for me right now. F***! Jan I just want to say that my greatest fear is one of getting depressed. I know you’re supposed to say you can cope with whatever happens but I just *can’t* cope with being depressed again. I don’t want to go through a depression again.

When I had to change ADs the worst part for me was the re-emergence of my depression. I knew it was only for a week but it was a long week. I will read on but I am wondering why you are reducing your medication. I would suggest that you may still need them. Meryl

Response:

 In fact I attribute any progress I’ve made to medications rather than myself. They may be more of a psychological crutch at this point rather than anything else.

Or maybe they are the treatment for your condition. I believe I have depression for life and thankful that there is medication to treat it. Meryl

Response:

Hi Bri, I believe it is Celexa, very close to Lexapro. Meryl (also taking Lexapro) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -What is the brand name for that Jan? Is that Lexapro? That’s what I’m on. What medication are you trying to reduce and in what way? Philip I was reducing my citalpram from 20mg to 10mg to nothing. I’ve been on 10mg for a number of weeks. I’ve been very unsure of whether this is the right thing to do but my pdoc and I are working together on this. I’ve never liked taking medication. Talking therapy and catharsis seemed to have worked best for me. Medication just seemed to control symptoms but really, who knows what they do. Right now I feel like I’ve lost a lot of control of my situation. This is when I start really panicking and running for the medication. Unfortunately (!) everyone around me says that I’m doing better than I think. Maybe I *can* deal with this on my own without the medication. I dunno… Jan

Response:

What is the brand name for that Jan? Is that Lexapro? That’s what I’m on.

Citalpram = Citalopram = Celexa (brand name)

Response:

What is the brand name for that Jan? Is that Lexapro? That’s what I’m on.

*citalporam* is the stuff that’s both in Celexa and Lexapro. As the patent on Cenexa ended the manufacturer had to think of a way to bring a new med on the market that would be very expensive (the pharmaceutical industry is your best friend Actually Lexapro is the *active* isomer of Celexa which in practice means that Lexapro is more potent and in theory that it should have fewer side effects. The jury is still out on this. Philip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What medication are you trying to reduce and in what way? Philip I was reducing my citalpram from 20mg to 10mg to nothing. I’ve been on 10mg for a number of weeks. I’ve been very unsure of whether this is the right thing to do but my pdoc and I are working together on this. I’ve never liked taking medication. Talking therapy and catharsis seemed to have worked best for me. Medication just seemed to control symptoms but really, who knows what they do. Right now I feel like I’ve lost a lot of control of my situation. This is when I start really panicking and running for the medication. Unfortunately (!) everyone around me says that I’m doing better than I think. Maybe I *can* deal with this on my own without the medication. I dunno… Jan

Response:

Did you have any beneficial effect from citalopram? (It takes a few weeks – up to eight – to kick in.) Or did you get initial side effect problems after raising the dose to 20 mg? Usually it’s best to start at 5 mg and raise the dose in weekly increments of 5 mg. Conversely the same goes for weaning off of it.

I’ve been on the citalopram for a number of years. I felt that it was not allowing me to connect with my feelings so well. I’ve never liked taking medication. No ones does. It’s not a hobby. But sometimes it’s *necessary*. I couldn’t do without.

If I may ask, what are your objections to medication? Anti depressants give me some really uncomfortable side effects and the sedatives make me downright depressed. Very simplified: they restore a chemical imbalance in your brain by putting the amount of serotonin there to better use (if they are SSRI’s like citalopram). AFAIK they don’t cause brain damage. But you have a point: taking a med is taking a risk and the exact mechanism by which these meds act is not fully understood. OTOH having panic attacks is also taking a risk and can make normal functioning totally impossible for many. So it’s a matter of choice for every individual.

I’m aware of the rationale behind the SSRIs. However I think their benefits are overstated and the disadvantages are understated. I say this based on my experience and seeing others on them. I don’t like the idea of putting an artificial chemical in my body. Surely there must be a more natural way to restore brain and body chemistry. An acquaintance of mine has turned a depression around purely through diet changes and relaxation.  This is when I start really panicking and running for the medication. Unfortunately (!) everyone around me says that I’m doing better than I think. They don’t feel what *you* feel. So their opinion doesn’t count.

Their opinion does count. They often (not always) see my situation and fears better than i do and help me see things as they are rather than overdramatise everything. I know you’re going to say I need to trust myself more and you’re right.   This is my main issue. Learning to trust myself, make my own decisions.  Maybe I *can* deal with this on my own without the medication. I dunno… It sounds like you’re in doubt, then chose to start medication and now, after having been on it for too short a time to be able to really evaluate the med’s effect, you are trying to stop it again. What does your pdoc say? I’d think either you decide not to take meds and don’t *or* decide to take medication after all and in that case it’s no use getting off of it without having given it a chance.

Like I said I’ve been on the meds for several years. My pdoc is of the opinion that medications won’t help me so much. In fact I attribute any progress I’ve made to medications rather than myself. They may be more of a psychological crutch at this point rather than anything else. Thanks for your feedback, Jan

Response:

The past couple of days have been hell and it seems like my recovery program has been shot to hell. I feel like I’ve really lost it and am in a negative spiral. I’m just venting, just venting. Well, my attempt to reduce medication is bringing things on a little too fast. I probably need to increase the dose again. I don’t like doing this but perhaps it’s the wisest thing for me right now. F***! Jan

Response:

The past couple of days have been hell and it seems like my recovery program has been shot to hell. I feel like I’ve really lost it and am in a negative spiral. I’m just venting, just venting. Well, my attempt to reduce medication is bringing things on a little too fast. I probably need to increase the dose again. I don’t like doing this but perhaps it’s the wisest thing for me right now. F***! Jan

I just want to say that my greatest fear is one of getting depressed. I know you’re supposed to say you can cope with whatever happens but I just *can’t* cope with being depressed again. I don’t want to go through a depression again. I want to run away! I’m homebound and it’s driving me crazy. I F-ing hate it but going out is tough too. And now the autumn and winter are coming with rain and grey weather. Am I being a coward if I just take off from here (Norway) to be with my parents who live in the tropics? Am I enforcing my feeling of helplessness by taking off? Should I stay here and face this? I have no job, few friends, live on welfare and am scared of my prospects! Supportive comments *only* please. Jan

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The past couple of days have been hell and it seems like my recovery program has been shot to hell. I feel like I’ve really lost it and am in a negative spiral. I’m just venting, just venting. Well, my attempt to reduce medication is bringing things on a little too fast. I probably need to increase the dose again. I don’t like doing this but perhaps it’s the wisest thing for me right now. F***! Jan

What medication are you trying to reduce and in what way? Philip

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What medication are you trying to reduce and in what way? Philip

I was reducing my citalpram from 20mg to 10mg to nothing. I’ve been on 10mg for a number of weeks. I’ve been very unsure of whether this is the right thing to do but my pdoc and I are working together on this. I’ve never liked taking medication. Talking therapy and catharsis seemed to have worked best for me. Medication just seemed to control symptoms but really, who knows what they do. Right now I feel like I’ve lost a lot of control of my situation. This is when I start really panicking and running for the medication. Unfortunately (!) everyone around me says that I’m doing better than I think. Maybe I *can* deal with this on my own without the medication. I dunno… Jan

Response:

What medication are you trying to reduce and in what way? Philip I was reducing my citalpram from 20mg to 10mg to nothing. I’ve been on 10mg for a number of weeks. I’ve been very unsure of whether this is the right thing to do but my pdoc and I are working together on this.

Did you have any beneficial effect from citalopram? (It takes a few weeks – up to eight – to kick in.) Or did you get initial side effect problems after raising the dose to 20 mg? Usually it’s best to start at 5 mg and raise the dose in weekly increments of 5 mg. Conversely the same goes for weaning off of it. I’ve never liked taking medication.

No ones does. It’s not a hobby. But sometimes it’s *necessary*. I couldn’t do without.   Talking therapy and catharsis seemed to have worked best for me.

But still you started to take citalopram, there must have been a reson for that.   Medication just seemed to control symptoms but really, who knows what they do.

Very simplified: they restore a chemical imbalance in your brain by putting the amount of serotonin there to better use (if they are SSRI’s like citalopram). AFAIK they don’t cause brain damage. But you have a point: taking a med is taking a risk and the exact mechanism by which these meds act is not fully understood. OTOH having panic attacks is also taking a risk and can make normal functioning totally impossible for many. So it’s a matter of choice for every individual.   Right now I feel like I’ve lost a lot of control of my situation.

Maybe talk therapy didn’t work well enough then? I don’t *know* (although its track record is not good in the anxiety dept.), some people *are* helped by it.   This is when I start really panicking and running for the medication. Unfortunately (!) everyone around me says that I’m doing better than I think.

They don’t feel what *you* feel. So their opinion doesn’t count.   Maybe I *can* deal with this on my own without the medication. I dunno…

It sounds like you’re in doubt, then chose to start medication and now, after having been on it for too short a time to be able to really evaluate the med’s effect, you are trying to stop it again. What does your pdoc say? I’d think either you decide not to take meds and don’t *or* decide to take medication after all and in that case it’s no use getting off of it without having given it a chance. Philip

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<all these baby steps I’m doing at home aren’t really getting me anywhere. The chinese definition of insanity is doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting different results. <My worry is that I’ll reinforce my dependency issues by taking off to be with my parents First of all, Mark Twain said it best – worrying is like paying interest on a debt you never even owed…  Secondly, none of us are independent.  If you personally need to be dependent for a while to avoid becoming "crazy", I’d submit that dependence in your case isn’t such a bad thing, and you can always work towards a level of "interdependence" while in the tropics (all other things being equal, your wardrobe can be much lighter there, and you can work on your tan.) I moved out of New York state, to the southeast part of the U.S., it was a little scary at first, but it was the best thing I ever did.  I go back to visit now and then, but am more than happy to step onto the return aircraft back to Atlanta. Oh, and by the way, your therapist will most assuredly NOT support your decision to fly the friendly skies, because he or she gets paid every time you go there.  They essentially need you to be sick, to keep them well.  I know I will get criticized for saying that, but in this case, I think you should hear it.  And NO, I am not making a sweeping indictment of all therapists, yours may have helped you, god knows mine has helped me.  I’m sure they have therapists in the tropics (wink) Enjoy your flight Gary

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hmm, rain, grey weather and a feeling of oncoming depression on the one hand, or going to the sunny tropics, not being homebound, and being with one’s family…. Jan, I don’t want to sound unsupportive at all – but I think that one is a no-brainer – go be with your family.  The fact that you even had the idea, and typed it here for examination by anyone tells me that it’s an idea that you came up with, and are giving consideration to. I recall once that my father told me that sometimes the best way to get out of the rain was to just walk in the opposite direction of the cloud. Certainly that is not always true, but sometimes it is EXACTLY what we need to do.  Norway hasn’t shown you much, no job, not much social life (and certainly not enough to keep you feeling confident or happy), "scared of prospects" I assume means there are worse things that you see on the horizon (not sure on that one).  Also, why is taking some action, like moving (which isn’t THAT easy to do, even in the best circumstances) going to reinforce your feeling of helplessness?  Your family may be much more empowering than you know. In the immortal words of a very good substance abuse counselor that I know "You’ve tried it your way, why don’t you just TRY the other way???" Depression is an illness that affects everything right down to the soul.. A fairly well known scholar and author on the soul (Thomas Moore) said that there is no better place to nurture the soul than in the context of a family (paraphrasing).  Get an airplane ticket and a beach towel, and get the hell out of there. My two cents worth, Gary ps:  You say being homebound is driving you "crazy" – I submit that living in the tropics will not be any worse than being driven crazy, and if it is, Norway isn’t going anywhere, and you can go back. GF Thanks for the encouraging words, Gary. I think I’ll heed the words of your counselor. I DO need to do something different and maybe being in a completely new setting will help. Unfortunately I’m worried about not having access to my therapist and support network but what the hell, I think I need to see that I can manage on my own. My worry is that I’ll reinforce my dependency issues by taking off to be with my parents. That’s my pattern – relying on others to rescue me and then collapsing. However a friend of mine said what you said: Just go, don’t put pressure on yourself, who cares about doing the "right thing", just go. As I said, I do need to break out of this rut. Maybe I need to do a BIG step now since all these baby steps I’m doing at home aren’t really getting me anywhere. Jan

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hmm, rain, grey weather and a feeling of oncoming depression on the one hand, or going to the sunny tropics, not being homebound, and being with one’s family…. Jan, I don’t want to sound unsupportive at all – but I think that one is a no-brainer – go be with your family.  The fact that you even had the idea, and typed it here for examination by anyone tells me that it’s an idea that you came up with, and are giving consideration to. I recall once that my father told me that sometimes the best way to get out of the rain was to just walk in the opposite direction of the cloud. Certainly that is not always true, but sometimes it is EXACTLY what we need to do.  Norway hasn’t shown you much, no job, not much social life (and certainly not enough to keep you feeling confident or happy), "scared of prospects" I assume means there are worse things that you see on the horizon (not sure on that one).  Also, why is taking some action, like moving (which isn’t THAT easy to do, even in the best circumstances) going to reinforce your feeling of helplessness?  Your family may be much more empowering than you know. In the immortal words of a very good substance abuse counselor that I know "You’ve tried it your way, why don’t you just TRY the other way???" Depression is an illness that affects everything right down to the soul..  A fairly well known scholar and author on the soul (Thomas Moore) said that there is no better place to nurture the soul than in the context of a family (paraphrasing).  Get an airplane ticket and a beach towel, and get the hell out of there. My two cents worth, Gary ps:  You say being homebound is driving you "crazy" – I submit that living in the tropics will not be any worse than being driven crazy, and if it is, Norway isn’t going anywhere, and you can go back. GF

Thanks for the encouraging words, Gary. I think I’ll heed the words of your counselor. I DO need to do something different and maybe being in a completely new setting will help. Unfortunately I’m worried about not having access to my therapist and support network but what the hell, I think I need to see that I can manage on my own. My worry is that I’ll reinforce my dependency issues by taking off to be with my parents. That’s my pattern – relying on others to rescue me and then collapsing. However a friend of mine said what you said: Just go, don’t put pressure on yourself, who cares about doing the "right thing",    just go. As I said, I do need to break out of this rut. Maybe I need to do a BIG step now since all these baby steps I’m doing at home aren’t really getting me anywhere. Jan

Response:

drr0c…@yahoo.com (Bodhisattvacat) wrote: >There is a fad among a particular kind of men to go around prosecuting >people’s personalities.

A fad? Look at the newsgroup list this time!  Ilya, you should be ashamed of yourself. The last thing one of the women in these groups needs is a wankerboi like you in her life.

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On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 11:51:38 GMT, bob <thana…@coldmail.nu> wrote in message <nturh0t83ul5jq2dt30loeoovj2foqu…@4ax.com> the following: >drr0c…@yahoo.com (Bodhisattvacat) wrote: >>There is a fad among a particular kind of men to go around prosecuting >>people’s personalities. >A fad? >Look at the newsgroup list this time!  Ilya, you should be ashamed of >yourself. The last thing one of the women in these groups needs is a >wankerboi like you in her life.

Yes…  it is quite presumptuous to the point of repulsive when some guy purports to know what the women in these groups needs or doesn’t need, isn’t it.  One should think they’re able to think and figure out what they need and don’t need for, and by, themselves. Ironic, isn’t it.

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Little Jimmy appeared to be supporting wankerboi spambot when he got up enough courage to post some passive aggressive claptrap: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 11:51:38 GMT, bob <thana…@coldmail.nu> >wrote in message ><nturh0t83ul5jq2dt30loeoovj2foqu…@4ax.com> the following: >>drr0c…@yahoo.com (Bodhisattvacat) wrote: >>>There is a fad among a particular kind of men to go around prosecuting >>>people’s personalities. >>A fad? >>Look at the newsgroup list this time!  Ilya, you should be ashamed of >>yourself. The last thing one of the women in these groups needs is a >>wankerboi like you in her life. >Yes…  it is quite presumptuous to the point of repulsive >when some guy purports to know what the women in these >groups needs or doesn’t need, isn’t it.  One should think >they’re able to think and figure out what they need and >don’t need for, and by, themselves.

Lets see. alt.support.depression Seems like it’d be filled with people who are not always particularly stable, people who sometimes need a shoulder to cry on, an ear to listen. A predator like Ilya could and likely has taken advantage of a woman with these traits. His own words: <Ilyaspew> by ++ DR. ROCKET First though we have to find out just HOW the depressed chick got that way. We must GET TO KNOW HER on her MOST INTIMATE LEVEL so that we could then know how to MANIPULATE her to get what we want. It’s not so hard, really, nor is it immoral in any manner; for what you are doing here is nothing that hasn’t been done to her BEFORE, and lest you be considered WEAK or INCOMPETENT you don’t want to be less precise than her previous PSYCHIC RAPISTS in your execution or your technique. There are three kinds of depressed chicks that you will be working with. Each kind has its strengths, its weaknesses and the vulnerabilities that you can EXPLOIT. Their diagnostic names are, respectively, the SQUISHED FLOWER, the DRY WELL and the SCAPEGOAT. The SQUISHED FLOWER phenomenon takes place when a talented and beautiful child is born to UGLY ENVIOUS LOSER PARENTS who are THREATENED by her potential and slowly stomp it out over the years, reducing her to a SPINELESS BALL OF PULP who can’t find a reason to get out of bed in the morning. The advantages of the SQUISHED FLOWER are many and obvious. First, she has many DELICIOUS INGREDIENTS which she doesn’t have the self-esteem or self-confidence to call her own, much less begrudge anyone for exploiting – meaning, of course, that you have before you an INFINITE CORNUCOPIA of the finest resources from which you can guiltlessly eat at will. Second, she is DESPERATE to bring back the sense of BEAUTY and HOPE that distinguished her as a child and would fall for just about any pretty lie you could tell her – meaning, you can be as RIDICULOUS and OUTRAGEOUS as you BLOODY WELL WANT, the more so the better. Finally, she is justifiably ARROGANT and NARCISSISTIC but does not have the self-confidence to sustain her attitude toward humanity – meaning, she NEEDS an egomaniac like yourself to use a crutch. Overall, this is by far the BEST kind of Depressed Chick, and if you can score with one of these babes then I SALUTE you for your GOOD TASTE. The DRY WELLs are not necessarily more beautiful or talented than others, but they do have a virtue that the modern society likes to disparage – EMPATHY and COMPASSION for all things living that under the best of circumstances turn them into STARVING ARTISTS, and under the worst of circumstances into MURDERED WIVES. These are also alternately known as MARTYRS, VICTIMS, and PLUSHTOYS, and they usually come from families so IRRATIONAL and NEUROTIC that identifying with everyone’s PAIN and STUPIDITY has been their only hope of surviving or making sense of the world. If you want someone who will put up with your SELFISHNESS and give you everything you’ve ever wanted, then this is the woman for you; chances are, she won’t even NOTICE that you’re an ASSHOLE, her previous men having been so much worse. The danger with a DRY WELL is that eventually she does, indeed, run dry for always nurturing everyone – and you either have to REPLENISH her with your own resources or leave her to drink herself into another hole. And then, of course, there’s THE SCAPEGOAT. As of now, I really do not see the mechanism by which these people live into their adulthood, their only purpose as children having been to provide their parents with HUMAN TOILETS to SHIT and PISS at for years and then DISCARD. I am speaking of course about the woman who, for one reason or another, never fit her narcissistic parents’ idea of what a child should be like and could not give them the SATISFACTION of living out their egos through her. This, in turn, "caused" them to turn against her and blame her for everything that was wrong with their lives. The SCAPEGOAT chicks are hideous tangles of GUILT, RAGE, HATRED and BLIND HOSTILITY, and unless you yourself are a suicidal depressive – or unless you want to find someone who will take blame for the MISERABLE FAILURE of your existence – you should AVOID this kind of Depressed Chick  at all costs. </Ilyaspew> alt.support shyness He probably feels they are all repressed and he has the prescription for what ails them. <ilyaspew. WHAT IS A REPRESSED CHICK ? For this discussion we will divide women into two categories: Sluts andRepressed Chicks . You may be offended, and that’s very fine; remember that it wasn’t me but your culture that has invented these terms, and the fact that English is my second language absolves me from all guilt in having created them. Instead it gives me license to use them against you, and that I shall do with the greatest of pleasures. The difference between Sluts and Repressed Chick , all ideological observations to the contrary, is simply this: One thinks that her desires are more important than social conventions, the other thinks otherwise. While a Slut confidently and shamelessly indulges her sexual appetites, a Repressed Chick is ashamed of her desires and tries her hardest to keep them suppressed. If a Repressed Chick has sex, she makes it into a mechanical ritual that prevents any real emotion or spontaneity; if a Repressed Chick is in a relationship, she buys a self-help book and tries to make sure that she and her boyfriend behave by the book. She does this because she was taught to see her emotions as inherently bad or misguided, and the pop psychology pablum she reads tells her exactly how to control her emotions – even as it reinforces the false idea that they are, indeed, very bad. A Slut wants a man who can fulfil her sexually. It’s what she has always wanted, and she has never been fooled into thinking otherwise. Repressed women are more complex. Because she thinks that her body is bad, a repressed woman wants to get punished for her desires. Her real sexuality, if it ever comes out, is masochistic and fetishistic if not downright perverted; the more monstrous the repression beneath which she labors, the more violent and self-punishing her fantasies and desires become. A repressed woman will not allow herself to enjoy sex unless she is being punished for doing it, so the experience must be painful or else degrading. Repressed Chicks are, indeed, the perfect prey for the most sadistic and unconsiderate of CaveJerks, and their fears and thrillers that cater to them say just as much. These women will tell you that they want a "nice man," someone who will respect them, someone who will honor their privacy and cater to their "individuality"; in 99% of the cases, this is pre-programmed crap. Just as the American emphasis on freedom and personal self-determination has made sure that most Americans are too ashamed to recognize the lies they’ve been told since childhood and can’t ever move beyond them, so the recent feminist attempt to police relationships for any signs of "codependence" and exploitation is merely a tactic to keep women further enslaved. They will marry a "nice guy," have children, live the lives that their parents sought for them, buy a house .. and never once return to themselves, never once fulfil their true nature. They will live only to perpetuate the system that has inhibited them from finding their real identity, manning an office and generating a kid but not experiencing any desire or fulfilment; and then they will smugly tell everyone just how nice it is to be able to make your own choices in a free society that cares about women’s rights. The real desire of a repressed person is to be freed from her inhibitions by somebody stronger than the people who have forced the inhibition on her in the first place. She knows that her will has been made an ally in her repression, and she knows that she will never enjoy normal sex because her conscious mind will turn it into an automatic ritual. Thus the secret fantasies of Repressed Chicks around the country: To get raped, to get psychologically decimated, to be taken to a lair of a masterful CaveJerk and be devoured. She wants to be liberated from the false identity that society has assigned to her against her desires, and that forever has kept her wretched and unfulfilled. </ilyaspew. alt.magick He probably through this one in because he believes he’s a great wizard (he also believes I’m an evil wizard who is capable of remotely attacking him – I don’t mean via the internet). I doubt he’d have any luck with anyone in this group. alt.abuse.recovery <ilyaspew> As psychology books tell us, a person who has been raped before will tend to get raped again. For Repressed Chicks , this is an understatement. Once a woman has been made to believe that she is inherently sinful – or, in the case of the modern repressed chicks, inadequate – any misery, any nastiness, any privation that she endures in her life is seen not merely as justly deserved, but as further evidence of her own depravity. The more absurd your place in society and the more stifling the people around … read more »

Response:

On Mon, 16 Aug 2004, Tom asked: > How would you define "unsuccessful thinking"?

Ever heard of Ilya "drr0cket" Shambat? D. — "I don’t think that I can take it, cuz it took so long to bake it." …………………………………………………………. (C) 2004 TheDavid^TM | David, P.O. Box 21403, Louisville, KY 40221

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"Tom"  wrote: >"mephisto"  wrote: >> Tom wrote: >> > The inside of one’s head is private property. >> Property is theft.  Theft will not be Tolerated. >Slogans.  Don’cha just love ‘em?  So much easier than thinking.

How long has it been since your last unsuccessful attempt at thinking. bob -lets play!!!  I’m much better at this than you are so you won’t keep me amused long but I’m also somewhat bored this weekend so …

Response:

"bob" <thana…@coldmail.nu> wrote in message

news:49ruh0l8v82mshecnale7rc37dd5fgeurc@4ax.com… > "Tom"  wrote: > >"mephisto"  wrote: > >> Tom wrote: > >> > The inside of one’s head is private property. > >> Property is theft.  Theft will not be Tolerated. > >Slogans.  Don’cha just love ‘em?  So much easier than thinking. > How long has it been since your last unsuccessful attempt at thinking.

How would you define "unsuccessful thinking"? > bob > -lets play!!!  I’m much better at this than you are so you won’t keep > me amused long but I’m also somewhat bored this weekend so …

Of course, you are.  Of course, you are.  I am your student.  Teach me.

Response:

On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 21:38:19 +0800, James – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<any…@bygeorge.canitbe.bcm.tmc.edu> wrote: >On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 11:51:38 GMT, bob <thana…@coldmail.nu> >wrote in message ><nturh0t83ul5jq2dt30loeoovj2foqu…@4ax.com> the following: >>drr0c…@yahoo.com (Bodhisattvacat) wrote: >>>There is a fad among a particular kind of men to go around prosecuting >>>people’s personalities. >>A fad? >>Look at the newsgroup list this time!  Ilya, you should be ashamed of >>yourself. The last thing one of the women in these groups needs is a >>wankerboi like you in her life. >Yes…  it is quite presumptuous to the point of repulsive >when some guy purports to know what the women in these >groups needs or doesn’t need, isn’t it.  One should think >they’re able to think and figure out what they need and >don’t need for, and by, themselves. >Ironic, isn’t it.

James, aren’t you going to come out to play?

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"catbrier" <catbrie…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:8901e207.0408140906.333d150a@posting.google.com… > drr0c…@yahoo.com (Bodhisattvacat) wrote in message > > I don’t care what is your personality; I don’t care what is your > > psychology. I don’t care if you have "issues," personality disorder or > > what have you. > Serial killer? Child rapist? You don’t CARE?

Those are actions, not personality traits. I don’t mind if a person has a personality similar to that of a serial killer or a child rapist, as long as he or she doesn’t kill people or rape children.  The inside of one’s head is private property. What comes out of that head and influences others in a harmful way is fair game for prosecution, but as long as it stays quietly at home, it can claim sanctuary.

Response:

Tom wrote: > The inside of one’s head is private property.

Property is theft.  Theft will not be Tolerated.

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"mephisto" <devilofatimetranslatingthisp…@ninth.circle.mil> wrote in message news:_wDTc.21790$nx2.9042@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net… > Tom wrote: > > The inside of one’s head is private property. > Property is theft.  Theft will not be Tolerated.

Slogans.  Don’cha just love ‘em?  So much easier than thinking.

Response:

On Sat, 14 Aug 2004, % wrote: > LETS DO THE CROSSPOST AGAIN

Okay, let’s! And while we’re at it, we, of the Popular Front of Kentucky, insist HONKII ITE DOMUM! Nub, Dabey wot iz called Dabey —         "It’s my life, and I’ll do what I want." – Eric Burdon ———————————————————————— (C) 2004 by ‘TheDavid^TM’ | David, P.O. Box 21403, Louisville, KY 40221

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LETS DO THE CROSSPOST AGAIN

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On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 09:06:27 -0700, "%" <surfs@uniserve> wrote: >LETS DO THE CROSSPOST AGAIN

OK!

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Hey % You’ve been around Usenet awhile. Why couldn’t you have killed it while it was still young? Now it has grown and festered and gets appended with zillions of floating turd particles every day.

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drr0c…@yahoo.com (Bodhisattvacat) wrote in message > I don’t care what is your personality; I don’t care what is your > psychology. I don’t care if you have "issues," personality disorder or > what have you.

Serial killer? Child rapist? You don’t CARE? > Paul was a killer, and yet God picked him to write the > New Testament.

Ilya – do you know how the New Testament was put together? You might want to research this. Paul wasn’t selected by "God!" He was selected by a group of bishops with vested interests! > I care about one thing and one thing only: That you do good. That you > deliberately, using the effort of will, do good things for the world > and for other people.

But that’s not what your hero Paul says! He asserts "salvation by faith and not works!" (James asserts otherwise. But then, the Bible is full of contradictions.) > Instead of looking in the mirror and asking yourself if you are a good > person – something Michele used to do –

Was this the woman who abandoned you for an automobile upgrade? Cat

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On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 10:15:50 -0700, "%" <surfs@uniserve> wrote: >LETS DO THE CROSSPOST AGAIN

OK! bob – remember the last time we did this?

Response:

On 14 Aug 2004 10:06:12 -0700, catbrie…@yahoo.com (catbrier) wrote: >drr0c…@yahoo.com (Bodhisattvacat) wrote in message >> Instead of looking in the mirror and asking yourself if you are a good >> person – something Michele used to do – >Was this the woman who abandoned you for an automobile upgrade?

No. Michele is the one who died a couple of years ago. Ilya put this site together to honor her memory: http://www.geocities.com/mswiegandrip/ The picture was taken on August 15, 1999.  Michele was getting ready to go out for lunch before heading up Montemartre. A lot of people miss Michele.

Response:

bob <thana…@coldmail.nu> wrote in news:g97sh01ra360gmmmoloo9peqdhk9nb9vt2@4ax.com: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Little Jimmy appeared to be supporting wankerboi spambot when he got > up enough courage to post some passive aggressive claptrap: >>On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 11:51:38 GMT, bob <thana…@coldmail.nu> >>wrote in message >><nturh0t83ul5jq2dt30loeoovj2foqu…@4ax.com> the following: >>>drr0c…@yahoo.com (Bodhisattvacat) wrote: >>>>There is a fad among a particular kind of men to go around >>>>prosecuting people’s personalities. >>>A fad? >>>Look at the newsgroup list this time!  Ilya, you should be ashamed of >>>yourself. The last thing one of the women in these groups needs is a >>>wankerboi like you in her life. >>Yes…  it is quite presumptuous to the point of repulsive >>when some guy purports to know what the women in these >>groups needs or doesn’t need, isn’t it.  One should think >>they’re able to think and figure out what they need and >>don’t need for, and by, themselves. > Lets see. > alt.support.depression > Seems like it’d be filled with people who are not always particularly > stable, people who sometimes need a shoulder to cry on, an ear to > listen. A predator like Ilya could and likely has taken advantage of a > woman with these traits. His own words: > <Ilyaspew> > by ++ DR. ROCKET > First though we have to find out just HOW the depressed chick got that > way. We must GET TO KNOW HER on her MOST INTIMATE LEVEL so that we > could then know how to MANIPULATE her to get what we want. It’s not so > hard, really, nor is it immoral in any manner; for what you are doing > here is nothing that hasn’t been done to her > BEFORE, and lest you be considered WEAK or INCOMPETENT you don’t want > to be less precise than her previous PSYCHIC RAPISTS in your execution > or your technique. > There are three kinds of depressed chicks that you will be working > with. Each kind has its strengths, its weaknesses and the > vulnerabilities that you can EXPLOIT. Their diagnostic names are, > respectively, the SQUISHED FLOWER, the DRY WELL and the SCAPEGOAT. > The SQUISHED FLOWER phenomenon takes place when a talented and > beautiful child is born to UGLY ENVIOUS LOSER PARENTS who are > THREATENED by her potential and slowly stomp it out over the years, > reducing her to a SPINELESS BALL OF PULP who can’t find a reason to > get out of bed in the morning. The advantages of the SQUISHED FLOWER > are many and obvious. First, she has many DELICIOUS INGREDIENTS which > she doesn’t have the self-esteem or self-confidence to call her own, > much less begrudge anyone for exploiting – meaning, of course, that > you have before you an INFINITE CORNUCOPIA of the finest resources > from which you can guiltlessly eat at will. Second, she is DESPERATE > to bring back the sense of BEAUTY and HOPE that distinguished her as a > child and would fall for just about any pretty lie you could tell her > – meaning, you can be as RIDICULOUS and OUTRAGEOUS as you BLOODY WELL > WANT, the more so the better. Finally, she is justifiably ARROGANT > and NARCISSISTIC but does not have the self-confidence to sustain her > attitude toward humanity – meaning, she NEEDS an egomaniac like > yourself to use a crutch. Overall, this is by far the BEST kind of > Depressed Chick, and if you can score with one of these babes then I > SALUTE you for your GOOD TASTE. > The DRY WELLs are not necessarily more beautiful or talented than > others, but they do have a virtue that the modern society likes to > disparage – EMPATHY and COMPASSION for all things living that under > the best of circumstances turn them into STARVING ARTISTS, and under > the worst of circumstances into MURDERED WIVES. These are also > alternately known as MARTYRS, VICTIMS, and PLUSHTOYS, and they usually > come from families so IRRATIONAL and NEUROTIC that identifying with > everyone’s PAIN and STUPIDITY has been their only hope of surviving or > making sense of the world. If you want someone who will put up with > your SELFISHNESS and give you everything you’ve ever wanted, then this > is the woman for you; chances are, she won’t even NOTICE that you’re > an ASSHOLE, her previous men having been so much worse. The danger > with a DRY WELL is that eventually she does, indeed, run dry for > always nurturing everyone – and you either have to REPLENISH her with > your own > resources or leave her to drink herself into another hole. > And then, of course, there’s THE SCAPEGOAT. As of now, I really do not > see the mechanism by which these people live into their adulthood, > their only purpose as children having been to provide their parents > with HUMAN TOILETS to SHIT and PISS at for years and then DISCARD. I > am speaking of course about the woman who, for one reason or another, > never fit her narcissistic parents’ idea of what a child should be > like and could not give them the SATISFACTION of living out their egos > through her. This, in turn, "caused" them to turn against her and > blame her for everything that was wrong with their lives. The > SCAPEGOAT chicks are hideous tangles of GUILT, RAGE, HATRED and BLIND > HOSTILITY, and unless you yourself are a suicidal depressive – or > unless you want to find someone who will take blame for the MISERABLE > FAILURE of your existence – you should AVOID this kind of Depressed > Chick  at all costs. > </Ilyaspew> > alt.support shyness > He probably feels they are all repressed and he has the prescription > for what ails them. > <ilyaspew. > WHAT IS A REPRESSED CHICK ? > For this discussion we will divide women into two categories: Sluts > andRepressed Chicks . You may be offended, and that’s very fine; > remember that it wasn’t me but your culture that has invented these > terms, and the fact that English is my second language absolves me > from all guilt in having created them. Instead it gives me license to > use them against you, and that I shall do with the greatest of > pleasures. > The difference between Sluts and Repressed Chick , all ideological > observations to the contrary, is simply this: One thinks that her > desires are more important than social conventions, the other thinks > otherwise. While a Slut confidently and shamelessly indulges her > sexual appetites, a Repressed Chick is ashamed of her desires and > tries her hardest to keep them suppressed. If a Repressed Chick > has sex, she makes it into a mechanical ritual that prevents any real > emotion or spontaneity; if a Repressed Chick is in a relationship, she > buys a self-help book and tries to make sure that she and her > boyfriend behave by the book. She does this because she was taught to > see her emotions as inherently bad or misguided, and the pop > psychology pablum she reads tells her exactly how to control her > emotions – even as it reinforces the false idea that they are, indeed, > very bad. > A Slut wants a man who can fulfil her sexually. It’s what she has > always wanted, and she has never been fooled into thinking otherwise. > Repressed women are more complex. > Because she thinks that her body is bad, a repressed woman wants to > get punished for her desires. Her real sexuality, if it ever comes > out, is masochistic and fetishistic if not downright perverted; the > more monstrous the repression beneath which she labors, the more > violent and self-punishing her fantasies and desires become. A > repressed woman will not allow herself to enjoy sex unless she > is being punished for doing it, so the experience must be painful or > else degrading. Repressed Chicks are, indeed, the perfect prey for the > most sadistic and unconsiderate of CaveJerks, and their fears and > thrillers that cater to them say just as much. > These women will tell you that they want a "nice man," someone who > will respect them, someone who will honor their privacy and cater to > their "individuality"; in 99% of the cases, this is pre-programmed > crap. Just as the American emphasis on freedom and personal > self-determination has made sure that most Americans are > too ashamed to recognize the lies they’ve been told since childhood > and can’t ever move beyond them, so the recent feminist attempt to > police relationships for any signs of "codependence" and exploitation > is merely a tactic to keep women further enslaved. They will marry a > "nice guy," have children, live the lives that their parents sought > for them, buy a house .. and never once return to themselves, never > once fulfil their true nature. They will live only to perpetuate the > system that has inhibited them from finding their real identity, > manning an office and generating a kid but not experiencing any desire > or fulfilment; and then they will smugly tell everyone just how nice > it is to be able to make your own choices in a free society that cares > about women’s rights. > The real desire of a repressed person is to be freed from her > inhibitions by somebody stronger than the people who have forced the > inhibition on her in the first place. She knows that her will has been > made an ally in her repression, and she knows that she will never > enjoy normal sex because her conscious mind will turn it into an > automatic ritual. Thus the secret fantasies of Repressed > Chicks around the country: To get raped, to get psychologically > decimated, to be taken to a lair of a masterful CaveJerk and be > devoured. She wants to be liberated from the false identity that > society has assigned to her against her desires, and that forever has > kept her wretched and unfulfilled. > </ilyaspew. > alt.magick > He probably through this one in because he believes he’s a great > wizard (he also believes I’m an evil wizard who is capable of remotely > attacking him – I don’t mean via the internet). > I doubt he’d have any luck with anyone in this group. > alt.abuse.recovery > <ilyaspew> > As psychology books tell us, a person who has been

… read more »

Response:

On Sat, 14 Aug 2004, bob quoted Ilya: [...] > A repressed woman will not allow herself to enjoy sex unless she > is being punished for doing it, so the experience must be painful > or else degrading.

"Painful and degrading." Such as, oh, having sex with Ilya. Check. > Repressed Chicks are, indeed, the perfect prey for the most sadistic > and unconsiderate of CaveJerks,

So why would any of ‘em bother with a pantywaist like Ilya? > and their fears and thrillers that cater to them say just as much.

Oh, like all the novels and movies about women who cross paths with remorseless psychotic stalkers like Ilya? > These women will tell you that they want a "nice man," someone who > will respect them, someone who will honor their privacy and cater to > their "individuality";

And very few women will tell you they want a foul-smelling ever-babbling ego-wanking pervert like Ilya. I wonder why that is? Chortlingly, TheDavid P.S. I don’t need any new net.babes in my life these days. But I always      have opening for people who send me money, coffee, or tickets for      all-expense-paid vacations in Cabo San Lucas in January. — "I don’t think that I can take it, cuz it took so long to bake it." …………………………………………………………. (C) 2004 TheDavid^TM | David, P.O. Box 21403, Louisville, KY 40221

Response:

"Bodhisattvacat" <drr0c…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:4f2532f6.0408131010.6034e185@posting.google.com… > There is a fad among a particular kind of men to go around prosecuting > people’s personalities.

Do you know the difference between prosecution and persecution?

Response:

On 13 Aug 2004 11:10:08 -0700,  in message <<4f2532f6.0408131010.6034e…@posting.google.com>>, Bodhisattvacat <drr0c…@yahoo.com> spleniated… >There is a fad among a particular kind of men [blah blah blah]

Monday, August 09, 2004 an address concerning Gibletsianity It is good to see you all here at this post supporting Giblets. Giblets is a good Giblets. Giblets is a great Giblets! Giblets has been a strong and steady Giblets and will continue to lead you to great and mightily Gibletsian things in the future! Behold the power of Giblets! To your right – a picture of a man in a hot dog costume. Continue to choose Giblets and more such riches await you. But first you must bow before Giblets. Bow before Giblets NOOOOOW! Your bowing has been sufficient! You are aware that terrifying evildoers lurk throughout the world seeking to destroy the Gibletsian way of life. Our nation of Giblets-worshipers is in danger. In danger from huge invisible crawly things with pincers and snakes and bombs. And only Giblets can protect you from them. Protect you with my strong steady leadership. There are some anti-Gibletsian hatemongers who would oppose Giblets. They hate Giblets for being a mighty leader. They have said "We are tired of being strong and steady and safe. We would prefer a policy of wimpy namby-pambiness." Well Giblets will not roll over and let hs rights and freedom get trampled by evil invisible crawly things who menace Gibletsia at every turn. Giblets will only accept his rights and freedoms being trampled by things and people who look and sound like Giblets. Tremble! To your left – a picture of a giant terrifying pineapple. To prove what a great job Giblets is doing protecting you from dark unspeakable evil, Giblets announces that his latest tip has come from a double agent buried deep within enemy ranks named "Fafnir" who has just begun giving us tons of weighty and vital information. See how well Giblets protects you? Bow before his strong leadership! I said BOW! I do not see you bowing! I see you staring at a computer screen eating a bag of chips! BOW BOW BOW BOW BOW! Better. You may continue intermittant bowing for the duration of the post. Lastly and most importantly, we must always remember to – you there! With the "NO WAR FOR GIBLETS" sign! You are in violation of your loyalty oath! Guards! Seize him! Seize him NOOOOOOW!

Another example of why, you may be careful about information put out in these newsgroups.  As LMG&Co twist words, incorrectly connect dots and project: "Larry Hoover" wrote in message

news:ciZCc.44420$MU4.1193611@news20.bellglobal.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Linda" wrote in message > news:43jod0d52nps69sdhk5hc56mpfpvlr9l3o@4ax.com… > > On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 11:34:12 -0400, "Larry Hoover" > > wrote: > > >There’s no fraud, Linda. I haven’t been on psych disability for even four > > >years (not 10), at the present time. > > I’m confused. > > Several years ago, posts were posted alleging you had been unemployed > > for 10? years. > Allegations. I’m glad you used that phrase. Nothing could be further from > the truth. Ten years ago, I was working on three degrees simultaneously, > while working at the university in a variety of roles.

That’s not the impression I got from your posts back when you were seeking support while coping with all the dx’s you used to allege you had, way back when. Your autobiographical posts gave me the impression you attended the university while on welfare or disability and recovering from a physical injure you sustained at age 32, disrupted your career as "Hoover the Mover" ……approximately 15 years ago. I got the impression your idleness and drug abuse during your recovery from the injury you sustained at age 32 (1989) led to your life spiraling downward and out of control—-til your drugging cost you your wife, kids, home, financial wherewithal, and landed you in the gutter by 1996, and a mental ward in 1997. I got the impression, that your remained NUTS even after you stopped drugging, and in 1999 your drug inspired grandiose delusion you were destined for greatness….got you dx’d as incurable—and put on permanent psych disability which you have remained on ever since. > > You did post about your being homeless and being in a mental ward, > > but, I got the impression such was for weeks or months—not for 6 > > years until you got a formal psych disability. > Correct. Weeks. > I was briefly homeless in 1996. I was on the psych floor for 20 days in > November 1997, voluntary. Before, during, and after, I worked as a contract > toxicologist. Not very long after my psych admission, I went on St. Johns > wort, and did exceedingly well on it. I made the mistake of going off it, in > ‘99. Humpty Dumpty fall down, go boom.

See—-’99 which is the year this current period of psych disability began (according to YOUR posts two years ago.) > > Were you homeless and/or in mental wards for the 6 years before you > > were put on the psych disability? > No. > > Or, did you have more then one protracted period of psych disability? > No. Just the one, as I describe.

sigh… you previously posted bout your being on the dole for this current psych disability since 1999 or 5 years ago—- – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > If I hadn’t > > >have broken my arm (at work) in January (and had serious complications > arise > > >therefrom) we wouldn’t be having this conversation at all. My employer > > >called less than an hour ago, begging me to come to work (but I do not > have > > >medical clearance to do so). I’m still waiting for a decision with > respect > > >to the need for surgery. > > Lousy break! > Lousy joke! The neurologist’s testing (last week) shows permanent nerve > damage, and there is still an issue of cartilage injury. We shall see. > > At least you tried to stop being such a malingerer. > I never was a malingerer, Linda. I have always worked, literally, at the > upper limits of my ability. Sometimes that wasn’t much, but that had nothing > to do with either effort, or will.

What you state now doesn’t square too well with what you previously shared about yourself. Linda

Response:

"Linda" <Li…@nospam.comnojunk> wrote in message

news:li2md09i6aj1hkphl0e2oocjgtrms9erb8@4ax.com… > NEWS . VOL 25 #1225 . PUBLISHED 5/26/04 > A Pill is Not Enough > Psychologist Michael Browne on the failures of antidepressants > by Beth Hawkins > http://www.citypages.com/databank/25/1225/article12146.asp

Good information.  On the other hand, when the drug is appropriate for an adult, in conjunction with therapy, and it works, it is a true life saver in so many ways. KC – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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