Abuse Recovery

Question:

The chinese definition of insanity is doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting different results.

(AA says that alla time too.. them people irritate me… they make ya hold hands and ya got icky people touchin ya.  i got kicked outta them things when i went with my brother cuz i wouldn’t "complete the circle" by holdin some dork’s hand i didn’t know)  BUT I GOT MY DAMN COOKIE, MIND YA ! First of all, Mark Twain said it best – worrying is like paying interest on a debt you never even owed…

yeah, Gary.. but in a former post you said that 90% of what we worry about never happens… so i’m thinkin them’s pretty good odds for "success via worry". Secondly, none of us are independent.

is that kinda like "no man is an island?"  (now that’s one thing i think coulda gone all day and never heard and still figgered out i wasn’t a dang island) If you personally need to be dependent for a while to avoid becoming "crazy", I’d submit

 that dependence in your case isn’t such a bad thing, and you can always work towards a level of "interdependence" while in the tropics

::spew:: !!!!  i’m gonna start submitting el pronto !  (all other things being equal, your wardrobe can be much lighter there, and you can work on your tan.)

(and boys never gotta search for a towel rack and chicks get ta fight over tha last donut, (which leads to a fight over the gal that ate the last donut, which leads to a fight over the guy that could carry the most donuts, which….. ok… ::poppinah blue::) ~tanya

Response:

I think talking about Jan’s titrating her medication dosage is sort of like re-arranging the furniture on the Titanic.  By her own admission, she feels like her life is going nowhere, and this is WITH the ‘help’ of medication, a therapist, few friends (but who are supportive, from what I can garner). She is unemployed and on welfare, additionally; so I’m inclined to think that the years spent on citalopram have not borne much fruit. Jan, go to the ticket counter, and buy your tickets to the tropics, you are fortunate to have the option (just my opinion) and things sound like they can only get better.  Continue taking the citalopram in the tropics – I agree with Philip’s titration schedule, in your case, I’d titrate down, with a 5 mg drop every TWO weeks (once you’re in a happier place, assuming it is, it won’t be like being on the Titanic anymore). Delta is ready when you are! Gary oh, and ps:  round-trip fares are often no more expensive than one-way tickets, so you may want to consider buying a round trip ticket, in case you hate it in the tropics too. GF

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Did you have any beneficial effect from citalopram? (It takes a few weeks – up to eight – to kick in.) Or did you get initial side effect problems after raising the dose to 20 mg? Usually it’s best to start at 5 mg and raise the dose in weekly increments of 5 mg. Conversely the same goes for weaning off of it. I’ve been on the citalopram for a number of years. I felt that it was not allowing me to connect with my feelings so well. I’ve never liked taking medication. No ones does. It’s not a hobby. But sometimes it’s *necessary*. I couldn’t do without. If I may ask, what are your objections to medication? Anti depressants give me some really uncomfortable side effects and the sedatives make me downright depressed. Very simplified: they restore a chemical imbalance in your brain by putting the amount of serotonin there to better use (if they are SSRI’s like citalopram). AFAIK they don’t cause brain damage. But you have a point: taking a med is taking a risk and the exact mechanism by which these meds act is not fully understood. OTOH having panic attacks is also taking a risk and can make normal functioning totally impossible for many. So it’s a matter of choice for every individual. I’m aware of the rationale behind the SSRIs. However I think their benefits are overstated and the disadvantages are understated. I say this based on my experience and seeing others on them. I don’t like the idea of putting an artificial chemical in my body. Surely there must be a more natural way to restore brain and body chemistry. An acquaintance of mine has turned a depression around purely through diet changes and relaxation.  This is when I start really panicking and running for the medication. Unfortunately (!) everyone around me says that I’m doing better than I think. They don’t feel what *you* feel. So their opinion doesn’t count. Their opinion does count. They often (not always) see my situation and fears better than i do and help me see things as they are rather than overdramatise everything. I know you’re going to say I need to trust myself more and you’re right. This is my main issue. Learning to trust myself, make my own decisions.  Maybe I *can* deal with this on my own without the medication. I dunno… It sounds like you’re in doubt, then chose to start medication and now, after having been on it for too short a time to be able to really evaluate the med’s effect, you are trying to stop it again. What does your pdoc say? I’d think either you decide not to take meds and don’t *or* decide to take medication after all and in that case it’s no use getting off of it without having given it a chance. Like I said I’ve been on the meds for several years. My pdoc is of the opinion that medications won’t help me so much. In fact I attribute any progress I’ve made to medications rather than myself. They may be more of a psychological crutch at this point rather than anything else. Thanks for your feedback, Jan

Response:

<And now the autumn and winter are coming with rain and grey weather. Am I being a coward if I just take off from here (Norway) to be with my parents who live in the tropics? Am I enforcing my feeling of helplessness by taking off? Should I stay here and face this? Hmm, rain, grey weather and a feeling of oncoming depression on the one hand, or going to the sunny tropics, not being homebound, and being with one’s family…. Jan, I don’t want to sound unsupportive at all – but I think that one is a no-brainer – go be with your family.  The fact that you even had the idea, and typed it here for examination by anyone tells me that it’s an idea that you came up with, and are giving consideration to. I recall once that my father told me that sometimes the best way to get out of the rain was to just walk in the opposite direction of the cloud. Certainly that is not always true, but sometimes it is EXACTLY what we need to do.  Norway hasn’t shown you much, no job, not much social life (and certainly not enough to keep you feeling confident or happy), "scared of prospects" I assume means there are worse things that you see on the horizon (not sure on that one).  Also, why is taking some action, like moving (which isn’t THAT easy to do, even in the best circumstances) going to reinforce your feeling of helplessness?  Your family may be much more empowering than you know. In the immortal words of a very good substance abuse counselor that I know "You’ve tried it your way, why don’t you just TRY the other way???" Depression is an illness that affects everything right down to the soul..  A fairly well known scholar and author on the soul (Thomas Moore) said that there is no better place to nurture the soul than in the context of a family (paraphrasing).  Get an airplane ticket and a beach towel, and get the hell out of there. My two cents worth, Gary ps:  You say being homebound is driving you "crazy" – I submit that living in the tropics will not be any worse than being driven crazy, and if it is, Norway isn’t going anywhere, and you can go back. GF

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The past couple of days have been hell and it seems like my recovery program has been shot to hell. I feel like I’ve really lost it and am in a negative spiral. I’m just venting, just venting. Well, my attempt to reduce medication is bringing things on a little too fast. I probably need to increase the dose again. I don’t like doing this but perhaps it’s the wisest thing for me right now. F***! Jan I just want to say that my greatest fear is one of getting depressed. I know you’re supposed to say you can cope with whatever happens but I just *can’t* cope with being depressed again. I don’t want to go through a depression again. I want to run away! I’m homebound and it’s driving me crazy. I F-ing hate it but going out is tough too. And now the autumn and winter are coming with rain and grey weather. Am I being a coward if I just take off from here (Norway) to be with my parents who live in the tropics? Am I enforcing my feeling of helplessness by taking off? Should I stay here and face this? I have no job, few friends, live on welfare and am scared of my prospects! Supportive comments *only* please. Jan

Response:

 In fact I attribute any progress I’ve made to medications rather than myself. They may be more of a psychological crutch at this point rather than anything else. Or maybe they are the treatment for your condition. I believe I have depression for life and thankful that there is medication to treat it. Meryl

Then you’re really lucky. I’ve never found medication to make that difference that I needed. That’s what makes me so unsure about the stuff. Jan

Response:

I think talking about Jan’s titrating her medication dosage is sort of like re-arranging the furniture on the Titanic.  By her own admission, she feels like her life is going nowhere, and this is WITH the ‘help’ of medication, a therapist, few friends (but who are supportive, from what I can garner). She is unemployed and on welfare, additionally; so I’m inclined to think that the years spent on citalopram have not borne much fruit.

That’s how I’m looking at things right now. The citalopram has not borne much fruit all these years. What has helped was reducing the dose so that the pain would motivate me to really make changes in myself. I spent years on the citalopram without really making any changes in myself. But yes, right now I don’t think medication is the issue. I need to do something different. I’m scared, I don’t know if it’ll really help me to go to Malaysia. What if it doesn’t help? What if I feel *worse*? What will I do then? What if I like it there? How will I handle moving permanently? What about my girlfriend? And my cat? I worry, worry, worry. Well, I’ve decided to go. I’m going to check out the airfares. I’ll try to tidy up my affairs here and then I’ll go. Jan, go to the ticket counter, and buy your tickets to the tropics, you are fortunate to have the option (just my opinion) and things sound like they can only get better.  Continue taking the citalopram in the tropics – I agree with Philip’s titration schedule, in your case, I’d titrate down, with a 5 mg drop every TWO weeks (once you’re in a happier place, assuming it is, it won’t be like being on the Titanic anymore).

I’m going to meet with my pdoc today and we’ll talk about the medication. I also have my first group therapy meeting today. I’m disappointed that I have to pull out of that one since I’m going away. Thanks for the positive comments. It helps a lot. It helps especially when I know that others experience life the way I do. regards, Jan PS For the record everyone, I’m a guy. In Europe Jan is usually a guy’s name.

Response:

was referring to the "success via worry" part…. as YOU once said "outta context is a nasty habit, but yer forgiven." Laughing – god you make me laugh so much……. Gary (the IT boy)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ya witch. xoxoxo Gary Miss "it girl" – dumb would be a big step up for that statement.  ’nuff said <gasp  i’m a step BELOW dumb now?  YOU SAID IT, *IT* BOY !  90% of what we worry about never happens.. in a former post ya said it. i’m thinkin a 90% positive return on investment is some pretty good odds, like it or not..   tell ya what, Gar… i’ll give you 100 bucks.. you gimme back $190.. i’ll be the dumbest bitch on da block til death do us part.. let’s do it twice a week, then up tha ante. then you’ll wanna marry me cuz i’m rich. see how y’are? ::slurppppppppppppppps:: ~tanya

Response:

ya witch. xoxoxo Gary

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Miss "it girl" – dumb would be a big step up for that statement.  ’nuff said <gasp  i’m a step BELOW dumb now?  YOU SAID IT, *IT* BOY !  90% of what we worry about never happens.. in a former post ya said it. i’m thinkin a 90% positive return on investment is some pretty good odds, like it or not..   tell ya what, Gar… i’ll give you 100 bucks.. you gimme back $190.. i’ll be the dumbest bitch on da block til death do us part.. let’s do it twice a week, then up tha ante. then you’ll wanna marry me cuz i’m rich. see how y’are? ::slurppppppppppppppps:: ~tanya

Response:

Miss "it girl" – dumb would be a big step up for that statement.  ’nuff said

<gasp  i’m a step BELOW dumb now?  YOU SAID IT, *IT* BOY !  90% of what we worry about never happens.. in a former post ya said it. i’m thinkin a 90% positive return on investment is some pretty good odds, like it or not..   tell ya what, Gar… i’ll give you 100 bucks.. you gimme back $190.. i’ll be the dumbest bitch on da block til death do us part.. let’s do it twice a week, then up tha ante.   then you’ll wanna marry me cuz i’m rich. see how y’are? ::slurppppppppppppppps:: ~tanya

Response:

<yeah, Gary.. but in a former post you said that 90% of what we worry about never happens… so i’m thinkin them’s pretty good odds for "success via worry". Miss "it girl" – dumb would be a big step up for that statement.  ’nuff said xoxoxox Gary "it boy"

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The chinese definition of insanity is doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting different results. (AA says that alla time too.. them people irritate me… they make ya hold hands and ya got icky people touchin ya.  i got kicked outta them things when i went with my brother cuz i wouldn’t "complete the circle" by holdin some dork’s hand i didn’t know)  BUT I GOT MY DAMN COOKIE, MIND YA ! First of all, Mark Twain said it best – worrying is like paying interest on a debt you never even owed… yeah, Gary.. but in a former post you said that 90% of what we worry about never happens… so i’m thinkin them’s pretty good odds for "success via worry". Secondly, none of us are independent. is that kinda like "no man is an island?"  (now that’s one thing i think coulda gone all day and never heard and still figgered out i wasn’t a dang island) If you personally need to be dependent for a while to avoid becoming "crazy", I’d submit that dependence in your case isn’t such a bad thing, and you can always work towards a level of "interdependence" while in the tropics ::spew:: !!!!  i’m gonna start submitting el pronto ! (all other things being equal, your wardrobe can be much lighter there, and you can work on your tan.) (and boys never gotta search for a towel rack and chicks get ta fight over tha last donut, (which leads to a fight over the gal that ate the last donut, which leads to a fight over the guy that could carry the most donuts, which….. ok… ::poppinah blue::) ~tanya

Response:

The jury is most certainly still out on this.  A number of people who have done just fine on Celexa changed to Lexapro and had side effects they had never had on any compound they’d been on.  In theory they’d be so similar (because of taking apart the stereo-isomer) that all you’d have is increased potency, but it seems they are two different animals.  Both drugs, incidentally, are under patent in the U.S. and will be for some time to come.  Celexa was used for years in Europe before it was brought here.  It is my personal favorite AD, but that’s fairly incidental and actually kinda irrelevant. Kind Regards, Gary

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is the brand name for that Jan? Is that Lexapro? That’s what I’m on. *citalporam* is the stuff that’s both in Celexa and Lexapro. As the patent on Cenexa ended the manufacturer had to think of a way to bring a new med on the market that would be very expensive (the pharmaceutical industry is your best friend Actually Lexapro is the *active* isomer of Celexa which in practice means that Lexapro is more potent and in theory that it should have fewer side effects. The jury is still out on this. Philip What medication are you trying to reduce and in what way? Philip I was reducing my citalpram from 20mg to 10mg to nothing. I’ve been on 10mg for a number of weeks. I’ve been very unsure of whether this is the right thing to do but my pdoc and I are working together on this. I’ve never liked taking medication. Talking therapy and catharsis seemed to have worked best for me. Medication just seemed to control symptoms but really, who knows what they do. Right now I feel like I’ve lost a lot of control of my situation. This is when I start really panicking and running for the medication. Unfortunately (!) everyone around me says that I’m doing better than I think. Maybe I *can* deal with this on my own without the medication. I dunno… Jan

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The past couple of days have been hell and it seems like my recovery program has been shot to hell. I feel like I’ve really lost it and am in a negative spiral. I’m just venting, just venting. Well, my attempt to reduce medication is bringing things on a little too fast. I probably need to increase the dose again. I don’t like doing this but perhaps it’s the wisest thing for me right now. F***! Jan I just want to say that my greatest fear is one of getting depressed. I know you’re supposed to say you can cope with whatever happens but I just *can’t* cope with being depressed again. I don’t want to go through a depression again. I want to run away! I’m homebound and it’s driving me crazy. I F-ing hate it but going out is tough too. And now the autumn and winter are coming with rain and grey weather. Am I being a coward if I just take off from here (Norway) to be with my parents who live in the tropics? Am I enforcing my feeling of helplessness by taking off? Should I stay here and face this? I have no job, few friends, live on welfare and am scared of my prospects!

Jan, If you have SAD (seasonal affective disorder), this doesn’t seem to be the right time to reduce your medication.  Have you tried light therapy or dawn simulators to try to help you through the winters? Personally, if your parents are suppportive, I’d suggest going to the tropics for the winter.  In addition to the necessary sunlight, you can discuss your situation with them and maybe they can make some useful suggestions or offer some additional options that may be more effective than the ones you’ve tried. My own back-up plan for this winter is to head toward the Western portion of the U.S. where there’s planty of light year ’round if the urge to hibernate gets overwhelming. Figaro

Response:

What is the brand name for that Jan? Is that Lexapro? That’s what I’m on.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What medication are you trying to reduce and in what way? Philip I was reducing my citalpram from 20mg to 10mg to nothing. I’ve been on 10mg for a number of weeks. I’ve been very unsure of whether this is the right thing to do but my pdoc and I are working together on this. I’ve never liked taking medication. Talking therapy and catharsis seemed to have worked best for me. Medication just seemed to control symptoms but really, who knows what they do. Right now I feel like I’ve lost a lot of control of my situation. This is when I start really panicking and running for the medication. Unfortunately (!) everyone around me says that I’m doing better than I think. Maybe I *can* deal with this on my own without the medication. I dunno… Jan

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The past couple of days have been hell and it seems like my recovery program has been shot to hell. I feel like I’ve really lost it and am in a negative spiral. I’m just venting, just venting. Well, my attempt to reduce medication is bringing things on a little too fast. I probably need to increase the dose again. I don’t like doing this but perhaps it’s the wisest thing for me right now. F***! Jan I just want to say that my greatest fear is one of getting depressed. I know you’re supposed to say you can cope with whatever happens but I just *can’t* cope with being depressed again. I don’t want to go through a depression again.

When I had to change ADs the worst part for me was the re-emergence of my depression. I knew it was only for a week but it was a long week. I will read on but I am wondering why you are reducing your medication. I would suggest that you may still need them. Meryl

Response:

 In fact I attribute any progress I’ve made to medications rather than myself. They may be more of a psychological crutch at this point rather than anything else.

Or maybe they are the treatment for your condition. I believe I have depression for life and thankful that there is medication to treat it. Meryl

Response:

Hi Bri, I believe it is Celexa, very close to Lexapro. Meryl (also taking Lexapro) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -What is the brand name for that Jan? Is that Lexapro? That’s what I’m on. What medication are you trying to reduce and in what way? Philip I was reducing my citalpram from 20mg to 10mg to nothing. I’ve been on 10mg for a number of weeks. I’ve been very unsure of whether this is the right thing to do but my pdoc and I are working together on this. I’ve never liked taking medication. Talking therapy and catharsis seemed to have worked best for me. Medication just seemed to control symptoms but really, who knows what they do. Right now I feel like I’ve lost a lot of control of my situation. This is when I start really panicking and running for the medication. Unfortunately (!) everyone around me says that I’m doing better than I think. Maybe I *can* deal with this on my own without the medication. I dunno… Jan

Response:

What is the brand name for that Jan? Is that Lexapro? That’s what I’m on.

Citalpram = Citalopram = Celexa (brand name)

Response:

What is the brand name for that Jan? Is that Lexapro? That’s what I’m on.

*citalporam* is the stuff that’s both in Celexa and Lexapro. As the patent on Cenexa ended the manufacturer had to think of a way to bring a new med on the market that would be very expensive (the pharmaceutical industry is your best friend Actually Lexapro is the *active* isomer of Celexa which in practice means that Lexapro is more potent and in theory that it should have fewer side effects. The jury is still out on this. Philip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What medication are you trying to reduce and in what way? Philip I was reducing my citalpram from 20mg to 10mg to nothing. I’ve been on 10mg for a number of weeks. I’ve been very unsure of whether this is the right thing to do but my pdoc and I are working together on this. I’ve never liked taking medication. Talking therapy and catharsis seemed to have worked best for me. Medication just seemed to control symptoms but really, who knows what they do. Right now I feel like I’ve lost a lot of control of my situation. This is when I start really panicking and running for the medication. Unfortunately (!) everyone around me says that I’m doing better than I think. Maybe I *can* deal with this on my own without the medication. I dunno… Jan

Response:

Did you have any beneficial effect from citalopram? (It takes a few weeks – up to eight – to kick in.) Or did you get initial side effect problems after raising the dose to 20 mg? Usually it’s best to start at 5 mg and raise the dose in weekly increments of 5 mg. Conversely the same goes for weaning off of it.

I’ve been on the citalopram for a number of years. I felt that it was not allowing me to connect with my feelings so well. I’ve never liked taking medication. No ones does. It’s not a hobby. But sometimes it’s *necessary*. I couldn’t do without.

If I may ask, what are your objections to medication? Anti depressants give me some really uncomfortable side effects and the sedatives make me downright depressed. Very simplified: they restore a chemical imbalance in your brain by putting the amount of serotonin there to better use (if they are SSRI’s like citalopram). AFAIK they don’t cause brain damage. But you have a point: taking a med is taking a risk and the exact mechanism by which these meds act is not fully understood. OTOH having panic attacks is also taking a risk and can make normal functioning totally impossible for many. So it’s a matter of choice for every individual.

I’m aware of the rationale behind the SSRIs. However I think their benefits are overstated and the disadvantages are understated. I say this based on my experience and seeing others on them. I don’t like the idea of putting an artificial chemical in my body. Surely there must be a more natural way to restore brain and body chemistry. An acquaintance of mine has turned a depression around purely through diet changes and relaxation.  This is when I start really panicking and running for the medication. Unfortunately (!) everyone around me says that I’m doing better than I think. They don’t feel what *you* feel. So their opinion doesn’t count.

Their opinion does count. They often (not always) see my situation and fears better than i do and help me see things as they are rather than overdramatise everything. I know you’re going to say I need to trust myself more and you’re right.   This is my main issue. Learning to trust myself, make my own decisions.  Maybe I *can* deal with this on my own without the medication. I dunno… It sounds like you’re in doubt, then chose to start medication and now, after having been on it for too short a time to be able to really evaluate the med’s effect, you are trying to stop it again. What does your pdoc say? I’d think either you decide not to take meds and don’t *or* decide to take medication after all and in that case it’s no use getting off of it without having given it a chance.

Like I said I’ve been on the meds for several years. My pdoc is of the opinion that medications won’t help me so much. In fact I attribute any progress I’ve made to medications rather than myself. They may be more of a psychological crutch at this point rather than anything else. Thanks for your feedback, Jan

Response:

The past couple of days have been hell and it seems like my recovery program has been shot to hell. I feel like I’ve really lost it and am in a negative spiral. I’m just venting, just venting. Well, my attempt to reduce medication is bringing things on a little too fast. I probably need to increase the dose again. I don’t like doing this but perhaps it’s the wisest thing for me right now. F***! Jan

Response:

The past couple of days have been hell and it seems like my recovery program has been shot to hell. I feel like I’ve really lost it and am in a negative spiral. I’m just venting, just venting. Well, my attempt to reduce medication is bringing things on a little too fast. I probably need to increase the dose again. I don’t like doing this but perhaps it’s the wisest thing for me right now. F***! Jan

I just want to say that my greatest fear is one of getting depressed. I know you’re supposed to say you can cope with whatever happens but I just *can’t* cope with being depressed again. I don’t want to go through a depression again. I want to run away! I’m homebound and it’s driving me crazy. I F-ing hate it but going out is tough too. And now the autumn and winter are coming with rain and grey weather. Am I being a coward if I just take off from here (Norway) to be with my parents who live in the tropics? Am I enforcing my feeling of helplessness by taking off? Should I stay here and face this? I have no job, few friends, live on welfare and am scared of my prospects! Supportive comments *only* please. Jan

Response:

The past couple of days have been hell and it seems like my recovery program has been shot to hell. I feel like I’ve really lost it and am in a negative spiral. I’m just venting, just venting. Well, my attempt to reduce medication is bringing things on a little too fast. I probably need to increase the dose again. I don’t like doing this but perhaps it’s the wisest thing for me right now. F***! Jan

What medication are you trying to reduce and in what way? Philip

Response:

What medication are you trying to reduce and in what way? Philip

I was reducing my citalpram from 20mg to 10mg to nothing. I’ve been on 10mg for a number of weeks. I’ve been very unsure of whether this is the right thing to do but my pdoc and I are working together on this. I’ve never liked taking medication. Talking therapy and catharsis seemed to have worked best for me. Medication just seemed to control symptoms but really, who knows what they do. Right now I feel like I’ve lost a lot of control of my situation. This is when I start really panicking and running for the medication. Unfortunately (!) everyone around me says that I’m doing better than I think. Maybe I *can* deal with this on my own without the medication. I dunno… Jan

Response:

What medication are you trying to reduce and in what way? Philip I was reducing my citalpram from 20mg to 10mg to nothing. I’ve been on 10mg for a number of weeks. I’ve been very unsure of whether this is the right thing to do but my pdoc and I are working together on this.

Did you have any beneficial effect from citalopram? (It takes a few weeks – up to eight – to kick in.) Or did you get initial side effect problems after raising the dose to 20 mg? Usually it’s best to start at 5 mg and raise the dose in weekly increments of 5 mg. Conversely the same goes for weaning off of it. I’ve never liked taking medication.

No ones does. It’s not a hobby. But sometimes it’s *necessary*. I couldn’t do without.   Talking therapy and catharsis seemed to have worked best for me.

But still you started to take citalopram, there must have been a reson for that.   Medication just seemed to control symptoms but really, who knows what they do.

Very simplified: they restore a chemical imbalance in your brain by putting the amount of serotonin there to better use (if they are SSRI’s like citalopram). AFAIK they don’t cause brain damage. But you have a point: taking a med is taking a risk and the exact mechanism by which these meds act is not fully understood. OTOH having panic attacks is also taking a risk and can make normal functioning totally impossible for many. So it’s a matter of choice for every individual.   Right now I feel like I’ve lost a lot of control of my situation.

Maybe talk therapy didn’t work well enough then? I don’t *know* (although its track record is not good in the anxiety dept.), some people *are* helped by it.   This is when I start really panicking and running for the medication. Unfortunately (!) everyone around me says that I’m doing better than I think.

They don’t feel what *you* feel. So their opinion doesn’t count.   Maybe I *can* deal with this on my own without the medication. I dunno…

It sounds like you’re in doubt, then chose to start medication and now, after having been on it for too short a time to be able to really evaluate the med’s effect, you are trying to stop it again. What does your pdoc say? I’d think either you decide not to take meds and don’t *or* decide to take medication after all and in that case it’s no use getting off of it without having given it a chance. Philip

Response:

<all these baby steps I’m doing at home aren’t really getting me anywhere. The chinese definition of insanity is doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting different results. <My worry is that I’ll reinforce my dependency issues by taking off to be with my parents First of all, Mark Twain said it best – worrying is like paying interest on a debt you never even owed…  Secondly, none of us are independent.  If you personally need to be dependent for a while to avoid becoming "crazy", I’d submit that dependence in your case isn’t such a bad thing, and you can always work towards a level of "interdependence" while in the tropics (all other things being equal, your wardrobe can be much lighter there, and you can work on your tan.) I moved out of New York state, to the southeast part of the U.S., it was a little scary at first, but it was the best thing I ever did.  I go back to visit now and then, but am more than happy to step onto the return aircraft back to Atlanta. Oh, and by the way, your therapist will most assuredly NOT support your decision to fly the friendly skies, because he or she gets paid every time you go there.  They essentially need you to be sick, to keep them well.  I know I will get criticized for saying that, but in this case, I think you should hear it.  And NO, I am not making a sweeping indictment of all therapists, yours may have helped you, god knows mine has helped me.  I’m sure they have therapists in the tropics (wink) Enjoy your flight Gary

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hmm, rain, grey weather and a feeling of oncoming depression on the one hand, or going to the sunny tropics, not being homebound, and being with one’s family…. Jan, I don’t want to sound unsupportive at all – but I think that one is a no-brainer – go be with your family.  The fact that you even had the idea, and typed it here for examination by anyone tells me that it’s an idea that you came up with, and are giving consideration to. I recall once that my father told me that sometimes the best way to get out of the rain was to just walk in the opposite direction of the cloud. Certainly that is not always true, but sometimes it is EXACTLY what we need to do.  Norway hasn’t shown you much, no job, not much social life (and certainly not enough to keep you feeling confident or happy), "scared of prospects" I assume means there are worse things that you see on the horizon (not sure on that one).  Also, why is taking some action, like moving (which isn’t THAT easy to do, even in the best circumstances) going to reinforce your feeling of helplessness?  Your family may be much more empowering than you know. In the immortal words of a very good substance abuse counselor that I know "You’ve tried it your way, why don’t you just TRY the other way???" Depression is an illness that affects everything right down to the soul.. A fairly well known scholar and author on the soul (Thomas Moore) said that there is no better place to nurture the soul than in the context of a family (paraphrasing).  Get an airplane ticket and a beach towel, and get the hell out of there. My two cents worth, Gary ps:  You say being homebound is driving you "crazy" – I submit that living in the tropics will not be any worse than being driven crazy, and if it is, Norway isn’t going anywhere, and you can go back. GF Thanks for the encouraging words, Gary. I think I’ll heed the words of your counselor. I DO need to do something different and maybe being in a completely new setting will help. Unfortunately I’m worried about not having access to my therapist and support network but what the hell, I think I need to see that I can manage on my own. My worry is that I’ll reinforce my dependency issues by taking off to be with my parents. That’s my pattern – relying on others to rescue me and then collapsing. However a friend of mine said what you said: Just go, don’t put pressure on yourself, who cares about doing the "right thing", just go. As I said, I do need to break out of this rut. Maybe I need to do a BIG step now since all these baby steps I’m doing at home aren’t really getting me anywhere. Jan

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hmm, rain, grey weather and a feeling of oncoming depression on the one hand, or going to the sunny tropics, not being homebound, and being with one’s family…. Jan, I don’t want to sound unsupportive at all – but I think that one is a no-brainer – go be with your family.  The fact that you even had the idea, and typed it here for examination by anyone tells me that it’s an idea that you came up with, and are giving consideration to. I recall once that my father told me that sometimes the best way to get out of the rain was to just walk in the opposite direction of the cloud. Certainly that is not always true, but sometimes it is EXACTLY what we need to do.  Norway hasn’t shown you much, no job, not much social life (and certainly not enough to keep you feeling confident or happy), "scared of prospects" I assume means there are worse things that you see on the horizon (not sure on that one).  Also, why is taking some action, like moving (which isn’t THAT easy to do, even in the best circumstances) going to reinforce your feeling of helplessness?  Your family may be much more empowering than you know. In the immortal words of a very good substance abuse counselor that I know "You’ve tried it your way, why don’t you just TRY the other way???" Depression is an illness that affects everything right down to the soul..  A fairly well known scholar and author on the soul (Thomas Moore) said that there is no better place to nurture the soul than in the context of a family (paraphrasing).  Get an airplane ticket and a beach towel, and get the hell out of there. My two cents worth, Gary ps:  You say being homebound is driving you "crazy" – I submit that living in the tropics will not be any worse than being driven crazy, and if it is, Norway isn’t going anywhere, and you can go back. GF

Thanks for the encouraging words, Gary. I think I’ll heed the words of your counselor. I DO need to do something different and maybe being in a completely new setting will help. Unfortunately I’m worried about not having access to my therapist and support network but what the hell, I think I need to see that I can manage on my own. My worry is that I’ll reinforce my dependency issues by taking off to be with my parents. That’s my pattern – relying on others to rescue me and then collapsing. However a friend of mine said what you said: Just go, don’t put pressure on yourself, who cares about doing the "right thing",    just go. As I said, I do need to break out of this rut. Maybe I need to do a BIG step now since all these baby steps I’m doing at home aren’t really getting me anywhere. Jan

Response: